How Come Some People Don't Like Reds?

[Jigawatt]

It's a curios day that brings up a discussion of like / dislike for redfish. I declare success when I have a slot red in the fish bag. I can catch just about anything else anytime I want. I guess it depends on how populous reds are where you fish. Reds are golden for me.

[TroutSupport.com]

How come they bite like crazy one day and not the next? Still full, or hungover from eating too much? I guess I'll never know.

They do bite more often than not. There is a rare rare occasion that there is too much shrimp around and they just won't hit anything. Those days a fly works pretty well sight casting it right in front of their noses. The other thing is, right now many are still in and out of the shallows. In most areas there are soooo many of them in the main and secondary bays with the trout mixed together. There are some reds in the marsh and mainly in areas that don't have a lot of main bay connection. It all has to do with what they are eating and where that is and where that's going. It should slowly begin to transition to more fish getting into the marsh cuts and marsh.

[TimmyT140]

How do you guys catch them in real skinny water? I've seen them a couple times in my new spot, managed to catch one on a sparkle beetle, but mostly they just ignore my offerings.
I wanted to give Buggs another try, but I see they are charging $7 apiece for them now, so that's out. Might have to look into tying my own...

[roninrus1]

I guess I'll have to catch those reds nobody likes.
Nasty job but somebody has to do it.
Just send them my way!

[TimmyT140]

I suppose I should have said 'some people' in the title, but it's a little late, now.

[BassnBrew]

How do you guys catch them in real skinny water?

I haven't given buggs a try yet, but from the positive feedback on these forums I think they're worth checking out. I typically use a light jighead (1/16oz or 1/8oz) with a soft plastic or live bait on a circle hook with great success. If you stumble on a pod of tailin' reds try to cast your lure in their path but not too close that you spook 'em. If you're matched with the forage one of them will slurp it up. The hardest part is having the knowledge to put yourself in that situation (information that is plentiful on TKF). Here's a 27" caught in a few inches of skinny marsh water on Monday (1/16oz jighead, 4inch plastic mullet) .

[karstopo]

How do you guys catch them in real skinny water? I've seen them a couple times in my new spot, managed to catch one on a sparkle beetle, but mostly they just ignore my offerings.
I wanted to give Buggs another try, but I see they are charging $7 apiece for them now, so that's out. Might have to look into tying my own...

I've used topwaters, paddle tails, and flies. Sometimes, you have to put whatever you are tossing way out in front of them to avoid spooking the fish and give it a little twitch as the come up to it. Sometimes, you have to put it on their nose and they bite out of spite. Sometimes, they just aren't in the mood. I've had days where they will refuse a well presented paddle tail but seconds later inhale a crabby looking fly. Other days, my paddle tail chunking friends will slaughter them and I'll have a hard time on flies.

My experience is that reds are pretty moody. They get tuned into food sources at times. Little shrimp might be it. Or little shad or glass minnows, or maybe fiddler crabs. I waded up on one big slot in West Matagorda bay in a windy streaky water chop. Believe it or not, I noticed mullet occasionally leaping away from one spot. Not like they were being pursued. More like they were swimming along and encountered a stationary predator and took evasive action. So I crept over and saw the redfish that was causing the mullet to leap. Red was just suspended off the bottom just a bit in about 18" of water. Water was just cloudy, broken and stirred enough to give me stealth and cover. I gradually moved a crustacean pattern fly at the end of my 9' foot rod closer and closer to see if I could get a strike. No reaction until I got the fly a couple inches from its nose and then the red just eased away with zero effort to strike the fly.

I'd try different sizes of tails and sizes. Short ones, long ones, various colors, Buggs, spoons, chicken boys, gulp, or just fish on days where it doesn't matter what you toss at them, they'll eat just about anything.

[Yaklash]

I'd be embarrassed to say what my PB speck is, so lets just say I haven't experienced the pleasure of fighting a significantly large speck yet, so I don't understand. When I do, maybe I'll agree with them.

I'm afraid to say that before you feel the pleasure of fighting a big trout and bringing it to hand, you may indeed feel the anguish and frustration of having lost a few of them But maybe not

[fillius nullius]

I don't know how anyone could dislike catching anything. I love catching them all, even stingray. I caught a monster sheepshead wading in San Luis one time, and that bugger fought like a champ.
Flounder is the best tasting, IMO, then trout, then redfish. I want to try stingray, but have not had the guts to try it yet.

[habanerojooz]

While I can cook anything and make it taste good, the taste of the meat is tied to an animal's diet. We know that to be the case with beef, chicken, and pork. Fish are no different.

A friend of mine told me about giant flathead catfish they used to catch and how good they tasted. When I questioned how a large scavenger feeder of that age could be so tasty, he said it's because flatheads eat only live fish for food. That made sense to me.

Reds muck around in the mud a lot and their diet consists of many things. Trout and flounder are mostly live fish eaters. I believe that this is why reds taste the way they do.

For taste, I prefer flounder, trout, and then reds

For freshwater, I prefer crappie.

When it comes to fighting, I agree that a big trout is a mean fighter. I stuck a 24" red and 24" trout this week. The trout peeled drag, ran circles, and was every bit as tough as the red. When your rod is bending with that kind of weight and it finally flashes at the surface .....if the color flashes orange....oh, it's a red...if the color flashes silver...heart stops, deep gasp. I'll take the excitement and fight of a 24" trout over a 24" red or any slot red, every time.

[roninrus1]

I suppose I should have said 'some people' in the title, but it's a little late, now.

Nah, knew what you meant, just messing with ya!
Like fillius nullius I just like to catch anything, with tackle that matches the fish.
No offense intended and I don't think you took it that way.
Tight lines, Rusty

[troutslinger]

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[Yaklash]

How do you guys catch them in real skinny water? I've seen them a couple times in my new spot, managed to catch one on a sparkle beetle, but mostly they just ignore my offerings.
I wanted to give Buggs another try, but I see they are charging $7 apiece for them now, so that's out. Might have to look into tying my own...

Yeah, the cost of good baits (Corkys and Buggs) can be a burden, but for what it's worth, I've been using a few Buggs for about 5 years now. I've only ever changed out the soft plastic grub worms. And each has probably caught 15-20 fish, flounder and redfish. And I got the replacement grubs out of my tackle box, not from them (both fresh water crappie grubs and Gulp swimming mullet). A bit of the fur and feathers have worn off but they are pretty durable baits. I wash them off with fresh water and let them air dry between trips, and have seen no rust on the hooks.

They are the best baits I know of for close quarters, spooky reds and are great flounder baits. If you plan to tie your own, I'd start with his jig-heads. They stand up straighter than any I've ever used, especially with a larger soft plastic to add buoyancy.

[Drifting Yak]

I'm afraid to say that before you feel the pleasure of fighting a big trout and bringing it to hand, you may indeed feel the anguish and frustration of having lost a few of them But maybe not [/quote]

I had not experienced this until last night in the lights. Missed not one but two really nice specs. When you hook up on a big red, and get a good hook set, you can usually land 'em. But these two beauties tugged a little (ok a lot - taking drag) then started shaking their heads. A distinctly different feeling than the power pull of a nice red. Then a few moves back and forth and poof - gone! I hope I get another chance!

[troutslinger]

I'm afraid to say that before you feel the pleasure of fighting a big trout and bringing it to hand, you may indeed feel the anguish and frustration of having lost a few of them But maybe not

I had not experienced this until last night in the lights. Missed not one but two really nice specs. When you hook up on a big red, and get a good hook set, you can usually land 'em. But these two beauties tugged a little (ok a lot - taking drag) then started shaking their heads. A distinctly different feeling than the power pull of a nice red. Then a few moves back and forth and poof - gone! I hope I get another chance! [/quote]
You will. That's what the excitement is for me with trout. They will do what they can to spit the hook. When you do land one, wait til how you feel.

[Drifting Yak]

Can't wait!

[Yaklash]

I'm afraid to say that before you feel the pleasure of fighting a big trout and bringing it to hand, you may indeed feel the anguish and frustration of having lost a few of them But maybe not

I had not experienced this until last night in the lights. Missed not one but two really nice specs. When you hook up on a big red, and get a good hook set, you can usually land 'em. But these two beauties tugged a little (ok a lot - taking drag) then started shaking their heads. A distinctly different feeling than the power pull of a nice red. Then a few moves back and forth and poof - gone! I hope I get another chance! [/quote]
That's why we call them "paper mouths" - hooks just seems to come out for no reason, even after a long fight. It can be very frustrating.

Worst ever was a near double digit trout at the old Hog Pen. It hit my Jumpin' Minnow like I'd flushed a giant pressure assist toilet, felt the weight of the fish immediately, set the hook and it must have danced on the surface for 5 seconds (that's a long time BTW). When it went subsurface and I still felt her weight and I "knew" I had her beat. Well she turned straight at me, swam faster than I could crank (SLACK!!!) and came up again about 20 yards away and shook even more violently than before. My lure came flying back at me and almost hit me. I swear I felt like selling all of my gear that night. Which, like Karstopo said, is why we love fighting trout so much....trout hounds are just masochists I guess.

[Drifting Yak]

Great story Yaklash!

[Minnow Stalker]

That trout slim though......


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[karstopo]

No, no, no reds are reliable. Good strong lips, mouths and jaws. Yes, they can still spit the hook. I will never forget a short shot at an upper slot with a big Skitterwalk where the fish inhaled the lure completely and then a fraction of a second later spit it out. You try that with your mouth with sharp size 2 VMC Trebles and see how you do.

But who designs a fish with a mouth made of tissue paper? And the fish at some point in its development becomes self aware of this fact. I would wager there isn't a 25+ " trout in Texas waters that hasn't figured this out and used it to its advantage. Only the Evil One can devise of such a creature.

Redfish are honest, hard working, fair fighting fish. They abide by the rules. They can crush hooks but that's fair. They can run into structure and cut you off, fair enough. They pull, they run, they give an honest effort generally equivalent to their size. Trout will do anything to tear that thin membrane excuse for a mouth. The bigger they are the more tricks they possess. Nothing is left off the table. You have your net out and the fish is just about in it. Fish says " let's make one last lunge and bury the hooks in the mesh". Goodbye fish. Resist the temptation to fish for them. Be assured those that do routinely get big trout in the net have done a deal with the devil. False prophets and demons, all of them. Don't be seduced.

[troutslinger]

I'm afraid to say that before you feel the pleasure of fighting a big trout and bringing it to hand, you may indeed feel the anguish and frustration of having lost a few of them But maybe not

I had not experienced this until last night in the lights. Missed not one but two really nice specs. When you hook up on a big red, and get a good hook set, you can usually land 'em. But these two beauties tugged a little (ok a lot - taking drag) then started shaking their heads. A distinctly different feeling than the power pull of a nice red. Then a few moves back and forth and poof - gone! I hope I get another chance!

That's why we call them "paper mouths" - hooks just seems to come out for no reason, even after a long fight. It can be very frustrating.

Worst ever was a near double digit trout at the old Hog Pen. It hit my Jumpin' Minnow like I'd flushed a giant pressure assist toilet, felt the weight of the fish immediately, set the hook and it must have danced on the surface for 5 seconds (that's a long time BTW). When it went subsurface and I still felt her weight and I "knew" I had her beat. Well she turned straight at me, swam faster than I could crank (SLACK!!!) and came up again about 20 yards away and shook even more violently than before. My lure came flying back at me and almost hit me. I swear I felt like selling all of my gear that night. Which, like Karstopo said, is why we love fighting trout so much....trout hounds are just masochists I guess.[/quote]
I feel ya yaklash, I was fishing a trout tournament and had a big girl probably are 9 lbs suck my topwater down and came up danced a little violent head shaking about to grab her and topwater comes flying out and stuck in my arm. Had a little cussing fit almost threw rod in water and finally regrouped. Ended up 4th that day but that fish would've taken me to the top.

[krfish]

Reds are my favorite fish to pursue. Hard to beat their fight, and as others have already stated you basically hunt them down to find them. Hard to beat some back lake red fishing.


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[Reefmonkey]

As a group, Texas saltwater anglers have been incredibly narrow-minded about what is and is not "good" to eat for generations, and it's unfortunate. Of course everyone is entitled to have their individual likes and dislikes, but two things: 1.) most anglers who have strong opinions on which fishes are not good to eat and/or are downright not edible have never actually tried the fishes they so passionately disdain (I know, I ask every time), they've just taken on faith the heresay passed onto them by other anglers who had themselves never tried the fishes and were just repeating what they had heard, and 2.) these dislikes are often not expressed as personal preferences, more as hard and fast rules about what is and is not edible. I was fishing with a guide a few years ago who was appalled that I actually wanted to keep the sheepshead I had just caught, I had to act quickly to keep him from releasing it without asking me. This guide was also one of those "I don't eat reds" fishermen, he only kept specks, and he was so incredulous that I planned to eat a "trash fish" like a sheepshead that he crossed over into rudeness. Never mind that Galatoire's, a nationally renowned New Orleans institution regularly serves sheepshead as one of its signature dishes. And it's delicious.

Another factor may be this: fish is one of the more difficult foods to cook well. It's especially easy to overcook. And some fish require a little extra knowledge of the anatomy to know how to avoid the bloodline, etc. Some fish lend themselves better to different preparation methods than others. Some fish, while excellent in skillful hands, are less forgiving of bad cooking than others. So a fisherman with limited cooking skills who only knows one or two ways to cook fish prepares a fish poorly, and he decides that fish isn't "good to eat."

There are a lot of fishes that "aren't worth" most anglers' time that are delicious. When sand trout are fresh, their meat is every bit as toothsome as their larger cousins the specks, they are excellent fried whole, or slashed and grilled with a little olive oil, lemon juice and herbs just like similar sized fish I've had in Greece and Turkey. Spot is another tasty little saltwater panfish, as are other croakers and whitings. Incidentally, black drum is delicious and not grainy as long as it is small enough, no longer than about 18 inches.

Now I said before that everyone is entitled to their personal likes and dislikes, but when the vast majority of Texas anglers have nearly the exact same narrow likes of only two or three species, it puts an inordinate amount of pressure on those species, and that's not good for the fishery. As anglers, we should look to the commercial seafood market as an example of what to do and what not to do. For decades narrow nationwide demand for only a few species, like cod from the North Atlantic, and red snapper from the Gulf, has seriously imperiled stocks of those fish. It's also ended up creating political morasses and corruption. Because the red snapper market is so lucrative, it has been locked up by a handful of kingpins - the federal government has given the rights to 77% of the red snapper harvest to just 55 people, while giving recreational fishermen like us a measly 3-day "season". It's criminal, and I refuse to eat red snapper on principal because of it. There are so many more delicious fish species out there, it's just for some reason or another they weren't easy to market nationally in every restaurant or supermarket from Dallas to Des Moines. Americans as a whole have not traditionally been very adventurous eaters, they wanted to see their shrimp cocktail, steak, and jacket potato on their menus wherever they ate, and when ordering fish were far more comfortable when they saw familiar names like red snapper, salmon, swordfish, etc. Seafood marketeers recognized this, and found it much easier to mass-market one new species at a time nationally than try to get wholesalers to start stocking a rotating variety of species. New species like orange roughy and chilean seabass were very carefully introduced to the market, often changing the names (the latter from "patagonian toothfish") to make them more marketable. And in most cases, this mass marketing led to serious declines in these fishes' natural stocks. But the tide is turning, American diners are becoming more adventurous, more informed, more conscious of how their dining choices affect the environment, and enlightened restauranteurs like Bryan Caswell at Reef here in Houston have begun proudly featuring bycatch, that is, fishes caught incidentally to target species, especially ones caught locally. If you live in the Houston area or make it over here often and haven't eaten at Reef yet, I highly recommend you do. It's time that Texas' saltwater anglers got on board, and realized that the wider range of species we target, the better it is for the fish, for us, and the sport. Dispersing our fishing pressure across a wider range of species significantly reduces the pressure on any one species. That means more of those fish to go around, especially for the traditional highly targeted Big Three. It means more fun fishing because we don't go on the water with the attitude that if we didn't catch a speck or red it was a "bad" day. IT means an opportunity to expand our skills, experiment with lighter tackle to make smaller fish more fun to catch, etc. It also means more reds and specks getting to trophy size. And it would mean TPWD not having to keep narrowing slot sizes and reducing bag limits on the traditionally targeted species.

[Cityfisher]

I like your post ReefMonkey. Thought provoking read and I agree with you. Especially the part about trying the not so popular so called trash fish. And to be honest, I don't even keep a redfish anymore. For one thing, I think they are a beautiful creature so I let them go. That is also why they are my favorite to hunt and fish for. Also, after eating flounder and specs I just don't want them anymore.
Yes, I think black drum is better than a redfish. Like you said though, no bigger than 17" or 18". Now, if we could legally keep a 16" or 18" redfish that might be a different story.

[bigbuzzard]

As a group, Texas saltwater anglers have been incredibly narrow-minded about what is and is not "good" to eat for generations, and it's unfortunate. Of course everyone is entitled to have their individual likes and dislikes, but two things: 1.) most anglers who have strong opinions on which fishes are not good to eat and/or are downright not edible have never actually tried the fishes they so passionately disdain (I know, I ask every time), they've just taken on faith the heresay passed onto them by other anglers who had themselves never tried the fishes and were just repeating what they had heard, and 2.) these dislikes are often not expressed as personal preferences, more as hard and fast rules about what is and is not edible. I was fishing with a guide a few years ago who was appalled that I actually wanted to keep the sheepshead I had just caught, I had to act quickly to keep him from releasing it without asking me. This guide was also one of those "I don't eat reds" fishermen, he only kept specks, and he was so incredulous that I planned to eat a "trash fish" like a sheepshead that he crossed over into rudeness. Never mind that Galatoire's, a nationally renowned New Orleans institution regularly serves sheepshead as one of its signature dishes. And it's delicious.

Another factor may be this: fish is one of the more difficult foods to cook well. It's especially easy to overcook. And some fish require a little extra knowledge of the anatomy to know how to avoid the bloodline, etc. Some fish lend themselves better to different preparation methods than others. Some fish, while excellent in skillful hands, are less forgiving of bad cooking than others. So a fisherman with limited cooking skills who only knows one or two ways to cook fish prepares a fish poorly, and he decides that fish isn't "good to eat."

There are a lot of fishes that "aren't worth" most anglers' time that are delicious. When sand trout are fresh, their meat is every bit as toothsome as their larger cousins the specks, they are excellent fried whole, or slashed and grilled with a little olive oil, lemon juice and herbs just like similar sized fish I've had in Greece and Turkey. Spot is another tasty little saltwater panfish, as are other croakers and whitings. Incidentally, black drum is delicious and not grainy as long as it is small enough, no longer than about 18 inches.

Now I said before that everyone is entitled to their personal likes and dislikes, but when the vast majority of Texas anglers have nearly the exact same narrow likes of only two or three species, it puts an inordinate amount of pressure on those species, and that's not good for the fishery. As anglers, we should look to the commercial seafood market as an example of what to do and what not to do. For decades narrow nationwide demand for only a few species, like cod from the North Atlantic, and red snapper from the Gulf, has seriously imperiled stocks of those fish. It's also ended up creating political morasses and corruption. Because the red snapper market is so lucrative, it has been locked up by a handful of kingpins - the federal government has given the rights to 77% of the red snapper harvest to just 55 people, while giving recreational fishermen like us a measly 3-day "season". It's criminal, and I refuse to eat red snapper on principal because of it. There are so many more delicious fish species out there, it's just for some reason or another they weren't easy to market nationally in every restaurant or supermarket from Dallas to Des Moines. Americans as a whole have not traditionally been very adventurous eaters, they wanted to see their shrimp cocktail, steak, and jacket potato on their menus wherever they ate, and when ordering fish were far more comfortable when they saw familiar names like red snapper, salmon, swordfish, etc. Seafood marketeers recognized this, and found it much easier to mass-market one new species at a time nationally than try to get wholesalers to start stocking a rotating variety of species. New species like orange roughy and chilean seabass were very carefully introduced to the market, often changing the names (the latter from "patagonian toothfish") to make them more marketable. And in most cases, this mass marketing led to serious declines in these fishes' natural stocks. But the tide is turning, American diners are becoming more adventurous, more informed, more conscious of how their dining choices affect the environment, and enlightened restauranteurs like Bryan Caswell at Reef here in Houston have begun proudly featuring bycatch, that is, fishes caught incidentally to target species, especially ones caught locally. If you live in the Houston area or make it over here often and haven't eaten at Reef yet, I highly recommend you do. It's time that Texas' saltwater anglers got on board, and realized that the wider range of species we target, the better it is for the fish, for us, and the sport. Dispersing our fishing pressure across a wider range of species significantly reduces the pressure on any one species. That means more of those fish to go around, especially for the traditional highly targeted Big Three. It means more fun fishing because we don't go on the water with the attitude that if we didn't catch a speck or red it was a "bad" day. IT means an opportunity to expand our skills, experiment with lighter tackle to make smaller fish more fun to catch, etc. It also means more reds and specks getting to trophy size. And it would mean TPWD not having to keep narrowing slot sizes and reducing bag limits on the traditionally targeted species.

I agree, reefmonkey. The first time I tried to fillet a sheephead I found too many bones for my liking. But sand trout, croaker and whiting are every bit as good. I heard years ago that hardhead is good, but a lot of trouble. I'm a firm believer in that all things are good to eat, you just have to prepare it correctly.

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