I was out building a pirogue seat for my kid tonight. It dawned on me that I've seen mention of Titebond and other waterproof glues in the forum but I thought it would be nice to start a thread specifically on glue - no epoxy.
I almost used Gorilla Glue to laminate my seat frames tonight since I am out of Titebond II. Honestly, I've never liked the foam out you get with poly glue so I sucked it up and used epoxy. Maybe some gurus can chime in on glues of choice. Where can you save some money and skip the epoxy? I would think a seat frame would be one if I had my preferred stuff on hand.
Also, a little off topic, but anyone ever used a biscuit jointer in boatbuilding? I ABSOLUTELY LOVE my biscuit jointer for all kinds of projects. Don't see why I could not use it for things above the waterline if a need ever arose.
Glue - the other adhesive
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gerald
- TKF 4000 Club
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Re: Glue - the other adhesive
The only place I use glue is when I'm edge gluing strips for a strip built boat. I only use yellow glues. Titebond II is a yellow glue. Isn't there a titebond III now? The white glues, gorilla glue (polyurethane, I belive), and many others, all creep--meaning that under stress the joint will move (creep). In addition they will gum up when sanding, etc.. The yellow glues are better all the way around. Other than that I use formulations of goopie (epoxy and the appropriate filler) for glue and fillets. Sorry--couldn't keep from mentioning epoxy.
I use super glue when making soft pad eyes.
Oh wait...I also use some contact cement for gluing foam and pads.
That's pretty much the extent of my glues and adhesives. Not much--huh?
If I remember something else I'll add it...
I use super glue when making soft pad eyes.
Oh wait...I also use some contact cement for gluing foam and pads.
That's pretty much the extent of my glues and adhesives. Not much--huh?
If I remember something else I'll add it...
Re: Glue - the other adhesive
I'm planning to build a wooden version of my milk crate complete with rod holders. My boat is no work of art, but that ugly blue milk crate just does not belong on it.
Construction will be based on Titebond II and biscuits. We'll see how it holds up.
Construction will be based on Titebond II and biscuits. We'll see how it holds up.
Re: Glue - the other adhesive
My 2 cents 
Just about commercial glue (Titebond, Elmers Wood Glue, Urac, animal glue, CA, etc, - not including Gorilla Glue as I've never used it) is much stronger that the wood it is glued to, assuming proper wood prep. In my bow making days I read dozens of articles about the properties of glues and their relative strength. And at the end of the day, under controlled conditions, they were all about the same, or at least within the repeatability of the test. If something breaks, it will be the wood tearing away from the glue, not the glue giving out. Having said that, assuming the bonding properties are all equal, you have two or three or four...factors that come in to play. 1) Set up time - As far as Titebond, TB1 is the fastest, down to TB3 which is the slowest. I like TB3 when I need a lot of time to torture a strip into place as I don't want it to dry before I have everything set. If it is something straight forward I like TB1 or 2. I don't care if it's waterproof or not as it will all be sealed with epoxy. 2) Gap filling properties (almost goes hand in hand with viscosity) - here's where I think glues like epoxy w/filler and Urac come in. Wood glue doesn't fill gaps very well because it shrinks (more on that later), so I generally don't use it in applications where there isn't a tight fit. Which brings us to the other property - 3) Clean up and ease of use - everybody likes water soluble adhesives because they are easy to clean up. I hate getting out the solvents to clean up epoxy. 4) Adhesive prep (we won't even get into animal glue!) - mixing - epoxy is easy, but you still go through a cup and mixer, and then there are glues like Urac, a two part resin - powder and liquid, which are measured out by weight (good thing I work in a lab ) but nothing is easier that opening the cap and dumping some glue out. - Getting back to glue shrinkage - two part epoxies and other catalytic glues undergo very little to no shrinkage (I can't stop thinking about that Seinfeld episode ) due to the fact that the very nature of how the system works. You've got molecule A bonding with molecule B in an exothermic reaction and very little evaporation do to solvent content. Wood glue type adhesives have to be in contact with air to initiate the evaporation of the solvent for the glue to set, that's where the shrink factor comes in 5) Other properties - wood prep - some glues tell you to "rough up" the surface with sandpaper or something like that to allow for a better physical bond. Another factor to consider is joint starvation, if the joint is clamped too tightly you stand the risk of squeezing all glue out, that's where having the scratches on the surface come in as well, to allow little pockets of glue to remain. I would use a toothing plane to prepare the gluing surface on the bows when gluing bamboo on to the belly wood, and trust me, I used lots of clamps and lots of love on them, and never had a failure caused by delamination, and those things are bending and flexing quite a bit during use. 6) And last but not least, or what I can think of anyway is glue slipperyness, for lack of a better term. Some glues, like wood glue, will cause the two pieces of wood to slide all over the place as you are trying to clamp them. Others, like Urac, tend to be easier to work with.
Thats about all I can think of
Just about commercial glue (Titebond, Elmers Wood Glue, Urac, animal glue, CA, etc, - not including Gorilla Glue as I've never used it) is much stronger that the wood it is glued to, assuming proper wood prep. In my bow making days I read dozens of articles about the properties of glues and their relative strength. And at the end of the day, under controlled conditions, they were all about the same, or at least within the repeatability of the test. If something breaks, it will be the wood tearing away from the glue, not the glue giving out. Having said that, assuming the bonding properties are all equal, you have two or three or four...factors that come in to play. 1) Set up time - As far as Titebond, TB1 is the fastest, down to TB3 which is the slowest. I like TB3 when I need a lot of time to torture a strip into place as I don't want it to dry before I have everything set. If it is something straight forward I like TB1 or 2. I don't care if it's waterproof or not as it will all be sealed with epoxy. 2) Gap filling properties (almost goes hand in hand with viscosity) - here's where I think glues like epoxy w/filler and Urac come in. Wood glue doesn't fill gaps very well because it shrinks (more on that later), so I generally don't use it in applications where there isn't a tight fit. Which brings us to the other property - 3) Clean up and ease of use - everybody likes water soluble adhesives because they are easy to clean up. I hate getting out the solvents to clean up epoxy. 4) Adhesive prep (we won't even get into animal glue!) - mixing - epoxy is easy, but you still go through a cup and mixer, and then there are glues like Urac, a two part resin - powder and liquid, which are measured out by weight (good thing I work in a lab ) but nothing is easier that opening the cap and dumping some glue out. - Getting back to glue shrinkage - two part epoxies and other catalytic glues undergo very little to no shrinkage (I can't stop thinking about that Seinfeld episode ) due to the fact that the very nature of how the system works. You've got molecule A bonding with molecule B in an exothermic reaction and very little evaporation do to solvent content. Wood glue type adhesives have to be in contact with air to initiate the evaporation of the solvent for the glue to set, that's where the shrink factor comes in 5) Other properties - wood prep - some glues tell you to "rough up" the surface with sandpaper or something like that to allow for a better physical bond. Another factor to consider is joint starvation, if the joint is clamped too tightly you stand the risk of squeezing all glue out, that's where having the scratches on the surface come in as well, to allow little pockets of glue to remain. I would use a toothing plane to prepare the gluing surface on the bows when gluing bamboo on to the belly wood, and trust me, I used lots of clamps and lots of love on them, and never had a failure caused by delamination, and those things are bending and flexing quite a bit during use. 6) And last but not least, or what I can think of anyway is glue slipperyness, for lack of a better term. Some glues, like wood glue, will cause the two pieces of wood to slide all over the place as you are trying to clamp them. Others, like Urac, tend to be easier to work with.Thats about all I can think of
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barditch
- TKF 2000 club
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Re: Glue - the other adhesive
Pepperfool wrote:I'm planning to build a wooden version of my milk crate complete with rod holders. My boat is no work of art, but that ugly blue milk crate just does not belong on it.
Construction will be based on Titebond II and biscuits. We'll see how it holds up.
I'd really be interested to see the finished product on this. Please post a photo when you're half way done so I can ask some questions!Re: Glue - the other adhesive
You bet. Realistically it will be a June posting. Right now I'm 30% into a seat for my daughter. Rather than posting a build-along, I'm just going to finish it and post all the steps at once, hopefully by Friday. The rest of the month will just be too crazy for me and I have a 10 day business trip to europe that takes me out of commission.barditch wrote:Pepperfool wrote:I'm planning to build a wooden version of my milk crate complete with rod holders. My boat is no work of art, but that ugly blue milk crate just does not belong on it.
Construction will be based on Titebond II and biscuits. We'll see how it holds up.
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Cut N Shoot
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:32 pm
Re: Glue - the other adhesive
Titebond III is awesome glue. I use it to glue handles, knock overlays and backing lamination's for hunting weight bows. I have never had one come apart. The thing is it needs a smooth flat mating surface to adhere to. It's not a gap filling glue, it needs a mated surface to bond. I wouldn't be afraid to use it on any wood that had a flat mating surface. This stuff rocks. Don't clamp it with screw clamps or you may starve the joint. I use spring clamps. It doesn't sand like yellow glue, but the glue lines are so small with it's not noticeable under a finish like polly, epoxy or varnish and it is strong!! I ordered my plans today for a Sellway Siton 17 and the Ranger 14. Wahoooooooooooo! Now if they will just fly quickly here to Texas! Rick