TexasKayakFisherman.com est. 2000

Kayak fishing the Lone Star State...


By RealBigReel
#1775326
My fishing has evolved to the point where I do a lot of kayak trolling. I have had HYBRID out in some waves and the only real problem is the wave slap. HYBRIDs bottom is the same as a River Ranger, flat. The pedals make it so that it handles the wind and waves OK but I think that wave slap is absorbing a lot of energy and it is annoying. HYBRID does lots of things right so I probably won't part with it but, I'd like a boat that can handle wind and waves better.

This boat would be 15 feet long plus the removable rudder, 26" wide and only 10" tall. It would SOT.

Image

From the sections you can see that the hull bottom isn't flat until about the midpoint. About and inch and 3/8 fore/aft rocker.
It would have custom cooler, to handle fish up to 27" long laying flat, about 34 quarts volume. This cooler would have a latch to keep it closed between putting fish in.
No bait tank on this one. But there would be a tackle storage area right behind the seat.
Mirage pedal drive of course
watertight Sealable hatches
High end fish finder, at least down imaging if not Side Imaging
Integral handles.
Heavy duty rudder, to really crank a turn like HYBRID does.
Sheet Styrofoam construction

I am thinking 2 layers of 4 oz glass on the outside and cockpit area. Extra glass front and rear and the keel line. Nothing exotic.
Of course it would get the graphite powder treatment on the bottom, and a good quality marine paint on the uppers.
Weight would be about 35 lbs

This is a new development for me so I am totally open to suggestion.
Last edited by RealBigReel on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:19 am, edited 7 times in total.
By Tony from Oak Point
#1775716
That will end up being a fast boat. Thanks for sharing a sneak preview.

I'm no expert but just thinking outloud.. an asymmetrical hull or a sharper hull like a racing canoe would be tempting as I think it would pierce through the waves a bit better.

With your current design what slap you do have left will be muted due to the foam construction I suspect so that should work out well. If you added weight fore and aft you'd have less slap, but of course that's weight you'll have to push along as you paddle so not a good solution.

From what I've noticed, lake waves have a high enough frequency so that you can have one wave lifting the stern just in time to slam into the next wave on the bow. Rocker doesn't help much in that situation. Making a boat that rides lower in the water and pierces the waves better as you have done with the added "V" should help. You could make the hull even lower in the water and use a "sponson hull" design like a lot of fishing SOT kayaks, but with relatively narrow beam the hull would be low indeed and I guess it would make for a wet ride. Too, the "sponsons" can generate their own noise. Well, I'll stop pretending to be a naval engineer. Maybe my ramblings will inspire some further ideas ;-)
By RealBigReel
#1782257
Been looking at a lot of different offshore boats including SurfSkis and stuff like that. There a lot of different design for boats to handle waves. Revised the drawing again and changed the drawing at the start of this post. I know pretty much what I want it to look like but getting it in that shape is still not totally clear in my mind.

Started work on this kayak. Spent some time getting the table level and with the right amount of Fore/Aft rocker. Laid the aft bottom piece down on the table and marked the outer edges. But had a problem with the table be slightly warped the wrong way laterally. I want a little bit of Port/Starboard rocker and the warpage was going the wrong way for me. So I shimmed the edges with a piece of rope.

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Glued down a couple of layers for the aft fill area. This the area behind the cooler but in front of the rudder support structure.

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That turned out to be a mistake because the layers slipped and then I had to end up trimming. But it didn't turn out badly.

I am using Epoxy, Gorilla Glue and Foam Adhesive for bonding. Epoxy is great for strength. Gorilla Glue is good when a blind area needs fill. Foam adhesive is great for when I just need a small amount right on the spot and no mixing.
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By richg99
#1782310
I see you are using sheet Styrofoam. I like that material and have used it for some theater backdrops/sets; a water-well for a church production; ...as well as model r/c airplanes. I made up a simple foam wire heated cutter with a battery charger for the power. Cut a few airplane wing shapes using the wire cutter.

I am going to watch this build with great interest because I have an idea or two that I'd like to build, and sheet foam would certainly make it lighter and better for my uses.

thanks, rich

p.s. Another interesting and inexpensive material is Coro-Plast (think Political and Real Estate signs) a nearly indestructible plastic sheeting; low cost; heavy but water proof. I used some cut-offs to stiffen my yak seat-back.
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By bowgarguide
#1782328
Rbr
Out of all my boats the only one that has nearly 0 wave slap is the Northwind ,you might want to look at the length and how the bow is constructed.
Ron
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By bowgarguide
#1782517
RBR
I have a couple more things I am going to run by you.
I wouldnt pay to much attention to the hulls on surf ski and other ocean going boats. They are designed for the ocean and the length between waves is much greater than the waves in fresh water.
I have several v bottom boats 26 inches wide and 28 inches wide. I can sit up pretty high in the 28 inch wide hulls but the 26 inch hulls are much more tender,and I find I need to sit low in them.With a sot design it is going to make you sit up pretty high , 26 inches v bottom sot may be plenty squirley .
The extra length will sure help and from my experience the longer water line and very little rocker should help a lot in stability ,speed, and hull slap.
Just some food for thought.
Ron
By RealBigReel
#1782775
bowgarguide wrote:RBR
I have a couple more things I am going to run by you.
I wouldnt pay to much attention to the hulls on surf ski and other ocean going boats. They are designed for the ocean and the length between waves is much greater than the waves in fresh water.
I have several v bottom boats 26 inches wide and 28 inches wide. I can sit up pretty high in the 28 inch wide hulls but the 26 inch hulls are much more tender,and I find I need to sit low in them.With a sot design it is going to make you sit up pretty high , 26 inches v bottom sot may be plenty squirley .
The extra length will sure help and from my experience the longer water line and very little rocker should help a lot in stability ,speed, and hull slap.
Just some food for thought.
Ron



There is some Northwind influence on my latest (so far unnamed) design. From what I have seen the Northwind is excellent and it looks great. (Note the recent changes in my drawing.)

HYBRID and SANDY are both 14'X28" and they are adequately stable. This new design is 15'X26" and the cockpit area is pretty flat bottomed. It has a reduced fineness ratio and I expect it to be only slightly less stable than those 2 with the extra length. In this new build I'll be sitting at about 4" (counting Thermarest seat pad) same as the previous builds.

Appreciate the comments.
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By richg99
#1782799
I have been learning a lot from reading all of your posts. Since my fishing target area(s) are either deep water or without any rocks, my needs are simple. Lightness would be heavenly for this old guy.

Looks like my Fall will be easily consumed by building a wide (34/36") and short (10/11') foot SOT made from Styrofoam. It will, no doubt, be a barge, but will be stable and easily transported.

Thanks for the inspiration and lessons.

Incidentally, your comment about the "fancy seat" not being worth it.... should save a lot of guys a ton of money. One of my little plastic yaks has a "grass-level-canvas-seat" stiffened with Coro-plast sign material. It is every bit as comfortable as the "professional" seat in my other yak.

I don't know how you have been removing the skin or film from the Styrofoam, but a method that is often used in model airplane construction is to use a dowel. Catch/pick a corner of the film; wrap it around a dowel, and roll the dowel down the panel. The film pulls easily up and doesn't break off as easily. Saved me a ton of time.

regards, Rich
By RealBigReel
#1784352
Glassed the balsa nose piece both sides.
Got the aft area up to it full height
Doubled up the hull walls on the cooler slot.
Profiled the bottom 2 sections for the forward hull.
Glassed these 2 forward hull section to the aft hull section. You can just barely see the split between the 2 forward hull pieces

Image

Also did a repair on a paddle.
After this cures up the front 2 hull pieces will be folded up to the nose piece and bonded.
By RealBigReel
#1784411
bowgarguide wrote:Is this a flat or v bottom ?
Ron

Currently it is flat. But it will get folded up. You may not see the crease down the middle, but there is one and I will fold it upward along that crease, so that it is nearly flat in the middle of kayak but at the bow the 2 halves will be twisted together almost 90° up to vertical. You will see what I am talking about in the next set of pictures.

It is hot. Epoxy has cured so proceeded with more installs.
Here is the cockpit forward bulkhead

Image

Now you can see that crease. Getting back after it.

7/14 Used Gorilla glue to bond in a second layer of 3/4" thick Styrofoam for the cockpit area. This will help the hull hold it's curved shape.
Clamped up the nose region getting ready to apply adhesive.



Image

7/15/12 This morning I was looking at some interesting designs on the "net". Some real speedster kayaks are of course the surf ski. E.G. racing offshore at almost 10 miles an hour in the Muloki challenge (32 miles). But I ran across another interesting concept call a "fish ski". These are flatter than most SOT kayaks I have seen and so probably have lower wind resistance. Fish Skis are made for getting out through surf and then fishing and getting back through surf with out overturning. Both Surf Skies and Fish Skis are overkill for what I want. I want to be able to handle waves up to 2 feet and not hear a "whump" every time the nose gets lifted and dropped, or a "whap" every time a little wave hits the nose.

07/16/12 Put the sides on the forward section and tacked them down with epoxy and microballoons.

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7/17/12 Cut out 2 more layers for the SOT cockpit area.
7/18/12 Got one of the layers glued down and the top layer cutouts for the fish finder display mount and the transducer mount.
7/19/12 4:40 AM got another layer of Cockpit filler bonded down.
Evening:
Drilled and cut out the well for the transducer.
Cut out the pieces for the forward deck
Filled in the cracks in the forward hull with epoxy and microballoons.
7/20/12 Laid down the 5th and last major layer of SOT that covers the aft portion of the cockpit area. This also locks in the transducer mount behind the seat.
Worked on a redesign of the seat back in CAD to make it more comfortable. Drew in a new scupper scheme, which reduces drag and complexity.
Did a layup of 2 pieces of 1/2 Styrofoam to see how much spring back there would be. 22" long and curved 2.5 inches springs back about 1/2".
Put some curvature in the foredeck and the seatback. 2 layers of 1/2" Styrofoam glued together with Gorilla glue.

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Found a new retractable rudder on the net that might get incorporated in this design.
By RealBigReel
#1789826
Seat back and Foredeck temporarily installed.

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Foredeck will be glassed on the underside before install so that the underside glass meets the exterior glass.
Seat back will be carved up some before final configuration.
Starting to look like something.

7/25/12 New drawing at the start of this thread. Revised and simplified.
7/26/12 Glassed the underside of the Foredeck.

7/28/12 New drawing at the start of this thread. Added in the front hatch (reverse alligator) updated the bottom cross section view to the current rounded configuration. Cleaned up some of the construction lines. Redesigned the cooler
Redesigning the control system for less effort and smoother operation. Not going to be any pulleys on this one.
Tack bonded the seat back supports.
Glassed the area behind the custom cooler slot back to the joint of the 2 sides aft.
Glassed inside the nose area.
Installed the control line housings fore and aft.
7/30/12 Calked the downside edges of the seat support.
Glassed most of the cockpit, plus the "hidden" control line housings in the foredeck bulkhead.
7/30/12 Glassed the cooler slot.
Tacked down the tumblehome.
Grooved out the rear structure for the control line housings and tacked them down.

Image

8/1/12 My machine is still down at work. Took a couple of days off. Taking care of some honey-dos and then laid down some more pieces to the kayak puzzle.
Bonded in the side rails for the cooler slot with goopy.
Discarded the curved seat back. IT wasn't right.
Bonded in a flat seat back with goopy.
Close up all of the holes on the tumblehome with goopy.
Bonded the foredeck in place with goopy and the filleted the back of the seat.
About 3 hours in this heat and I'll be ready to do some serious carving.
Last edited by RealBigReel on Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
By RealBigReel
#1793754
richg99 wrote:Reelbig....re "carving" do you use a hot wire for shaping the foam? Rich

No. I did think about getting one though. Would be a lot less dust.
I use a carpenter saw and a hacksaw blade minisaw. The minisaw works especially well when cutting glassed foam.
I also do a lot of sanding to shape.
By RealBigReel
#1794131
Ron, I have used sureform too. But if I really want to get aggressive it's the belt sander.

Thanks Preacher. Still a long ways to go before this one is done.

8/2/12
Patched in and cleaned up the inside of the cooler slot.
Installed the support for the aft end of the cooler slot.
Filled in the nose area.
Glassed the underside of the tumblehome.
Glassed the front side of the seat back.
Glassed the forward bulkhead to the foredeck.

8/3/12 Before 7:30 Installed the rear handle. (It gets buried in the structure)
Installed the rails for the cooler slot with 3" tape underneath. (Had to slit them to get them to bend enough.)
Installed tumblehome rails with 2" tape underneath. (They also get 2 layers of 1" on top so that they will hold padeye screws.)
Glassed the joint on the back of the seat back.
And 3" tape on the front side of the seat.

Image

Lessons learned so far:
Foam adhesive is easy to apply and with the calk gun there is little waste and it is ready to use quickly. Makes a nicely filleted joint. Downside is that it takes at least 24 hours to get a good cure. Can't glass over it until it is cured and it can't be used for fill because it takes way to long to cure if applied thickly. It is best to not apply it where sanding will be required, because it is difficult to sand.

Gorilla glue cures quickly in about 3 or 4 hours and it fills gaps pretty good. There is just one viscosity and if there is a hole it will leak out. Gorilla glue expands so it must be clamped or the joint will spread.

Epoxy requires a precise mix. To little hardener and it might not cure at all. To much hardener and it will cure too fast and too brittle. Epoxy can be mixed with either Phenolic (chocolate color)or Glass Microballoons (white color) or a mix of the 2 (to match the wood) and the viscosity can be controlled from paintable to a thick paste. The strength of an epoxy joint is better than most any base material we work with and there are few things it won't stick to.
With this heat and using US Composites 3:1, I can't mix more than about 80 mL (~ 4 oz) or it will get too thick to work before I finish. Almost blew it this morning!
On the other hand with 2:1 I can only get about 1 set per day. (it will be great for the large areas later.)
I bought some yellow epoxy colorant this time. We'll see how it works.
Last edited by RealBigReel on Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
By makenmend
#1794149
"" I bought some yellow epoxy colorant this time. We'll see how it works.""

vey nice work, really interesting stuff.


Have thought on using pigmentd epoxy, will be waiting for your thoughts on that when you get there.

MM
By RealBigReel
#1794201
makenmend wrote:"" I bought some yellow epoxy colorant this time. We'll see how it works.""

vey nice work, really interesting stuff.


Have thought on using pigmentd epoxy, will be waiting for your thoughts on that when you get there.

MM



This is the colorant, maybe I should have said pigment:

http://www.shopmaninc.com/pigments.html

I got the Golden Rod Yellow. (Everybody knows yellow boats are faster :P.)
By RealBigReel
#1794652
richg99 wrote:GREAT....You are a master... Rich


Thankyou, lots of people build better, but I am enjoying this.

8/8/12 Over the last couple of days. Got the back end around the rear handle covered up and glassed.
Got the seat back brace glassed.
Lots of sanding done.
Some fill done.

8/11/12 Trimmed the seat back. Lots of sanding done, then filled some. Glassed up against the starboard cockpit rail over wet fill all the way back to the aft end of the cooler slot.
Later sanded more and filled and then glassed the port cockpit rail over wet fill too.

08/17/12 Over the last several days:
Got the fore deck glassed.
Got the cockpit and cooler slot rails glassed (so they will hold screws).
Second coat of glass in the cooler slot.
Corrected the seat back.
Patched in several pieces of glass in corners and such.
Got some work done on the nose handle.

Image

Assemble and installed the tail piece.

Image

That is a 9/32" tube with a .25" ID for the rudder swing pin. (Fits snug.)
Plenty of sanding done and lots left to do. I figure I am just over half done.

8/18/12 Did lots of sanding and fine shaping this morning.
Filled and glassed the keel from the nose back about 5 feet.
Filled and glassed the tail piece.
Filled and glassed the transducer well.
Filled the downside edges of the the 3" tape (the tape that is against the rail).
Getting close to glassing first coat on the bottom.
8/26/12 Over the last week got a lot of fill and sanding done.
Glassed in that tail piece better.
Received the Hobie Click N Go units from ACK (special order and not cheap either). Now I can design the Mirage drive slot.
Worked on a redesign of the rudder.

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