Design question
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Design question
On many of the builds we see a flat bottom (both with and without rocker)3 panel; Kim's boat has a 5 panel design, w/a flat and two sloping panels below the water line; Ron's newest project is a 4 panel v-bottom. Understanding that Ron's looking for a rockect ship, is he sacrificing stability for speed, or is the four panel design suitable for fishing purposes as well? Is one preferrable to the other, and if so why?
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Re: Design question
If I understand what your asking the split down the middle of the bottom panel is to give the boat better tracking and if I understand it correctly the more angle given to that panel the better the tracking It would be like pushing something flat accross the water and then taking it and folding it and pushing it again it would track straighter
Mike
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Re: Design question
Bartech
My T-V is a four panel and it is my camping and fishing boat,so is my Cuda I have built four boats of this design and like the way they handle.
It all depends on what you want to do with the boat,each design has there strong points and applications.
My T-V is a four panel and it is my camping and fishing boat,so is my Cuda I have built four boats of this design and like the way they handle.
It all depends on what you want to do with the boat,each design has there strong points and applications.
Re: Design question
The fastest hull would be a round bottom, like a half-circle in cross section; also be the least stable. The most stable would be a square raft, which would also be the least fast. Most all small boats are something in between. The flat bottom 3-panel job's chief asset is ease of construction. Having even just a little bit of shape to the bottom greatly enhances the ability to handle waves comfortably. Flat bottoms also perform best in very shallow water.
I get in trouble for this from time to time, so please allow me to emphasize this point: flat bottom boats handle waves safely. But not comfortably. Ask me how I know. It's why you seldom see pirogues on the coast. There are always exceptions, however, and on the coast is precisely where I first met the pirogue in person.
Ron's 4-panel jobs are probably the most bang for the buck possible for all the best assets, like speed, stability, seaworthiness, ease of construction, looks, etc. Some people say soft chine hulls are more stable, and I absolutely disagree. Some of the classic designs known especially for thoroughly benign handling characteristics are 4-panel jobs, like the CLC Chesapeake series of sea kayaks.
One of the tippiest damn boats you can ever hope to meet is my Cormorant, and it's shaped a whole lot like a Chesapeake. I honestly have no clue what causes one to be so tame and the other so wild, but there ya go. I can also tell you that deadrise, or depth of the vee shape, has nothing to do with stability or tracking if all other things are equal. Again, ask me how I know. Increased deadrise in kayaks is for extreme wave bashing ability.
And, as always, your mileage may vary.
I get in trouble for this from time to time, so please allow me to emphasize this point: flat bottom boats handle waves safely. But not comfortably. Ask me how I know. It's why you seldom see pirogues on the coast. There are always exceptions, however, and on the coast is precisely where I first met the pirogue in person.
Ron's 4-panel jobs are probably the most bang for the buck possible for all the best assets, like speed, stability, seaworthiness, ease of construction, looks, etc. Some people say soft chine hulls are more stable, and I absolutely disagree. Some of the classic designs known especially for thoroughly benign handling characteristics are 4-panel jobs, like the CLC Chesapeake series of sea kayaks.
One of the tippiest damn boats you can ever hope to meet is my Cormorant, and it's shaped a whole lot like a Chesapeake. I honestly have no clue what causes one to be so tame and the other so wild, but there ya go. I can also tell you that deadrise, or depth of the vee shape, has nothing to do with stability or tracking if all other things are equal. Again, ask me how I know. Increased deadrise in kayaks is for extreme wave bashing ability.
And, as always, your mileage may vary.
Last edited by Pogo on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- bowgarguide
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Re: Design question
Mess with your head a little more,my t-v and Darrels freedom striper boats are pretty close to the same speces,going upriver on the Brazos ,pretty swift water he is faster going down river my four panel is faster. Like I said depends on what you are going to use it for.
Ron
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Re: Design question
Gentlemen, I thank you for your input. Now I must go consult with my mentor, Jose Cuevo, and try to raise my IQ to ya'll's level.
Seriously, I do appreciate the input...it does clear the air, if not the brain cells, which may be irreparably mired.
Red
Seriously, I do appreciate the input...it does clear the air, if not the brain cells, which may be irreparably mired.
Red
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Re: Design question
Where's Gerald?
Ron
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Re: Design question
I have been out of town. There are positives and negatives of all designs. One reason for flat bottoms--ie: 3 and 5 panel--is that they are comfortable to beach and they have flat bottoms for your feet, etc.. What you are looking for in all boats is a shape that will do what you want it to do and react to conditions they way you want it to. Round bottom is the fastest--but you have to be born in one to paddle it...very unstable, but in the hands of an expert very seaworthy. This is because of the paddler, not the boat. Other soft chine shapes can give you different combinations of characteristics. In other words...you can get good speed with good stability. These shapes run the gamut from round (as mentioned), parabolic, elliptic, and so on. For most of us a boat that is elliptic will be the best--but then there are many different degrees of elliptic shape. Same problem. Each gives us different characteristics. You simply have to experiment or go with fairly proven shapes in order to get what yo want.
Hopefully no one will doubt that the soft chine shapes are generally the best. However when using certain building materials, like plywood, we will be face with design contraints. Plywood boats are generally designed with flat panels--all planes must bend in only one direction. This is why we'll end up with 3, 4, 5, 6, and so however many panels to infinity chines. With the flat panels we are trying to get as close to the round, parabolic, or elliptic shape that will give us the characteristics that we are looking for. In other words--flat panel boats are an approximation of the soft chine shape that will build us the boat of our dreams.
So...though I've often said that neither soft chine or hard chine construction is better--in actuality the soft chine shape IS the better overall shape. You just can't do the round chine shapes with plywood (unless you use the tortured plywood method...and even that is still limited to fairly tame 2 plane bends).
Most of us...including me...are trying to out think ourselves when it comes to boat designs. There is no secret design....
Hopefully no one will doubt that the soft chine shapes are generally the best. However when using certain building materials, like plywood, we will be face with design contraints. Plywood boats are generally designed with flat panels--all planes must bend in only one direction. This is why we'll end up with 3, 4, 5, 6, and so however many panels to infinity chines. With the flat panels we are trying to get as close to the round, parabolic, or elliptic shape that will give us the characteristics that we are looking for. In other words--flat panel boats are an approximation of the soft chine shape that will build us the boat of our dreams.
So...though I've often said that neither soft chine or hard chine construction is better--in actuality the soft chine shape IS the better overall shape. You just can't do the round chine shapes with plywood (unless you use the tortured plywood method...and even that is still limited to fairly tame 2 plane bends).
Most of us...including me...are trying to out think ourselves when it comes to boat designs. There is no secret design....
- bowgarguide
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Re: Design question
Dang Gerald says it so much better than I can,and he even knows what he is talking about.
Ron
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Re: Design question
bowgarguide wrote:Dang Gerald says it so much better than I can,and he even knows what he is talking about.
Ron
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Re: Design question
Yeah,thats what I said too
Mike
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Re: Design question
Say whuuuuuttt....?
- 4x4kayak2112
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Re: Design question
Can a Pirogue be used for bay fishing??? Pogo said that they arnt usally seen around the coast, does that mean BTB, or the bay systems???
im planning on building me a 16 ft Pirogue with half decks and rudder, but i do alot of bay fishing.
im planning on building me a 16 ft Pirogue with half decks and rudder, but i do alot of bay fishing.
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Re: Design question
Pogo's got an opinion, and generally he's in the 9 ring or better, but I've seen bunches of pirogues in the flats, marshes and back bays...they may not be wave busters, but I'll betcha a bazillion trout and reds have be harvested over the years in those things, especially in LA and deep E. Tex. I have no clue about BTB, but FWIW, I'm gonna build something on the order of the boat that Preacher is building for his brother, hopefully this winter, and the intended goal is wiping out the redfish population between POC and CC! (Heck! It don't hurt to dream big!)
Re: Design question
Yep, ol' Pogo's got an opinion alright, and as usual he's gonna shed it all over you like so much cat fur.
Flat bottom boats can handle bay waters safely. But they cannot handle 'em as comfortable as a boat with a little shape to the bottom. That's part one; part two goes like this: splitting the bottom panel to arrive at a 4-panel shallow vee like Ron's boats just ain't that hard. It's one more seam, the end. If you KNOW you're headed towards the chop, why sell yourself short building a flatwater design?
I'll shut up now, and watch y'all make the fur fly....
Flat bottom boats can handle bay waters safely. But they cannot handle 'em as comfortable as a boat with a little shape to the bottom. That's part one; part two goes like this: splitting the bottom panel to arrive at a 4-panel shallow vee like Ron's boats just ain't that hard. It's one more seam, the end. If you KNOW you're headed towards the chop, why sell yourself short building a flatwater design?
I'll shut up now, and watch y'all make the fur fly....
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Re: Design question
I'm still thinkin' about that 4 panel approach, Kurt! You have a valid point. I'll probably make up what's left of my mind after sausage season...probably January. Like the Navajos say, "...during the season when the thunder sleeps." That way, I can entertain the golfers in the neighborhood by tuning up the tablesaw when it's too miserable for them to be out chasing the ball!
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Re: Design question
We need to get Zeke in on this,he fishes lakes a lot and has a flatbottom perow and a v bottom w T-V.
Ron
Ron
Re: Design question
Good call, where's that rascal at when you need him? Better check the ice houses.....
No question about it -- pirogues are the absolute easiest to build. But -- look out! another incoming opinion! -- I'm pretty well convinced that anyone who can manage a pirogue can handle a 4-panel job just fine. But now let us stand aside for a fact coming through: nothing's better than flat bottoms for shallow water ops, so that might be something to think about if stalking the flats for reds is the plan.
My profane old cigar-chomping newspaper editor grandfather used to call golf "pasture pool".
No question about it -- pirogues are the absolute easiest to build. But -- look out! another incoming opinion! -- I'm pretty well convinced that anyone who can manage a pirogue can handle a 4-panel job just fine. But now let us stand aside for a fact coming through: nothing's better than flat bottoms for shallow water ops, so that might be something to think about if stalking the flats for reds is the plan.
My profane old cigar-chomping newspaper editor grandfather used to call golf "pasture pool".
- 4x4kayak2112
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Re: Design question
How would a 16 ft, with 31 inch beam Pirogue paddle, i dont want it to be a tug boat, i want it to be as fast as a trident 13......
im gonna paddle it long distances 2-3 miles, so i dont want it too slow......
i guess a rudder on one would help out on windy days?? is it worth the extra effort?
im gonna paddle it long distances 2-3 miles, so i dont want it too slow......
i guess a rudder on one would help out on windy days?? is it worth the extra effort?
Re: Design question
At 16 feet I'd think the beam could be greatly reduced for paddling efficiency without sacrificing stability. I'm no expert on pirogues, or SOT either for that matter, but just as a WAG I'm thinking 16' x 26" to 28" would be a lot better. Faster, and easier to swing that paddle over the gunnels.
Here I go again .... If you build it light, performance will increase. It should be easy to build a 45-lb pirogue (just pretend epoxy is hideously expensive and use it accordingly), and it'll beat the britches off a ~60-lb+ Trident right there.
Rudders are GREAT for fishing, and for balls-to-the-wall-all-out racing. But they really shouldn't be needed for steering a boat underway, that should be more of a job for somewhat refined paddle technique. Rudders are also a lot easier to build yourself than most folks can believe. I think you ought to plan on building a rudder, if you can stand another "Pogopinion".
Here I go again .... If you build it light, performance will increase. It should be easy to build a 45-lb pirogue (just pretend epoxy is hideously expensive and use it accordingly), and it'll beat the britches off a ~60-lb+ Trident right there.
Rudders are GREAT for fishing, and for balls-to-the-wall-all-out racing. But they really shouldn't be needed for steering a boat underway, that should be more of a job for somewhat refined paddle technique. Rudders are also a lot easier to build yourself than most folks can believe. I think you ought to plan on building a rudder, if you can stand another "Pogopinion".
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Re: Design question
It doesn't matter if it's a 3 panel, a 97 panel, or a soft chine boat--the more stable boats are going to react more strongly to side waves and/or forces. This strong reaction is what many people generally mean when they say those boats aren't nearly so seaworthy as--for example--a true sea kayak. This doesn't mean the more stable boats can't handle rough water in lakes and bays. They can. As pogo says--they aren't as comfortable doing it. And a sea kayak is only as seaworthy as the paddler is skilled. That statement actually goes for all boats but is especially true for sea kayaks and skinny surf skis.
A 16' X 31" 3 panel boat should tromp all over a 13' Trident. Part of that depends on the paddler though. Put a wimp in the 3 panel and an olympic paddler in the Trident and of course the trident would win. Heck...put an olympic paddler in a bathtub and he, or she, would tromp all over either one.
I must be saying that the motor has something to do with how fast any given boat can go....
A 16' X 31" 3 panel boat should tromp all over a 13' Trident. Part of that depends on the paddler though. Put a wimp in the 3 panel and an olympic paddler in the Trident and of course the trident would win. Heck...put an olympic paddler in a bathtub and he, or she, would tromp all over either one.
I must be saying that the motor has something to do with how fast any given boat can go....
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Re: Design question
Put another way, Gerald...back in my wasted youth when going fast was important to young foolish drivers, the local speed shop engine builder had a sign over his workbench that said, "Speed Costs Money; How Fast Do You Want to Go?"
The other sign in his shop said something to the effect of "Cubic Inches Equals Cubic Bucks".
Boy, do I love paddle trolling!
The other sign in his shop said something to the effect of "Cubic Inches Equals Cubic Bucks".
Boy, do I love paddle trolling!
Re: Design question
gerald wrote:....a sea kayak is only as seaworthy as the paddler is skilled.....
Here we go again. I hear what you're saying, but I still hate to see you put it like that. Far as I'm concerned, it very possibly conveys a very wrong idea to those who do not understand sea kayaks. Most sea kayaks are just not that hard to manage -- your general statements apply to surfskis and K1's, but not to sea kayaks!
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Re: Design question
I don't mean to make it sound like sea kayaks are hard to paddle. I don't really think that. I love sea kayaks. I consider the skill of a paddler to be a big part of any boat being seaworthy. This factor is emphasized in narrower boats designed to handle big water--a sea kayak being one of that type of boat. I'm not singling out sea kayaks as hard to paddle. Quite the opposite. They are great boats and in the hands of a skilled paddler--such as pogo--can not only survive, but cavort with glee in rougher water than most other types.
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Re: Design question
Sorry, I was at the lake all weekend
As far as lakes both of my boats will do the job. Each has different handling characteristics, but they are different boats. So far neither has been out in what I would call rough water, white caps in other words, but both have been in decent rollers and handled it fine. If you have questions post them up.
kevin
As far as lakes both of my boats will do the job. Each has different handling characteristics, but they are different boats. So far neither has been out in what I would call rough water, white caps in other words, but both have been in decent rollers and handled it fine. If you have questions post them up.
kevin