Stripper boat strip question
Stripper boat strip question
I have been reading the building posts and gained quite a bit of knowledge (thanks to everyone helping us newbies), but I am still unclear on a couple of things:
When building a stripper kayak or canoe, why does everyone use 3/4ish inch wide strips? I can see that some variance is acceptable, but the goal always seems to be 3/4in. Is a wider strip (say 1 1/4in to 1 1/2in) that much harder to work with? I can see not going narrower as you could be gluing forever, but wider seems to be a bit faster and possibly lighter (less wood glue). I understand that this is a bit of a naive question, but it has been rattling around in my head since I have been reading the building posts for a few weeks now.
Also, I have seen some really cool designs in the stripper canoes and kayaks (strips that have inlays and/or geometric patterns done with differing wood). How do you create the strips that have those details and still be able to bend them around the forms? Do you laminate them onto a thin strip in the middle? Examples:
The deck details: http://olp09.files.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... 000012.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The line in the sides (showing inside and outside): http://www.canadiancanoes.com/Courses_i ... EB%209.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks,
Ron T.
When building a stripper kayak or canoe, why does everyone use 3/4ish inch wide strips? I can see that some variance is acceptable, but the goal always seems to be 3/4in. Is a wider strip (say 1 1/4in to 1 1/2in) that much harder to work with? I can see not going narrower as you could be gluing forever, but wider seems to be a bit faster and possibly lighter (less wood glue). I understand that this is a bit of a naive question, but it has been rattling around in my head since I have been reading the building posts for a few weeks now.
Also, I have seen some really cool designs in the stripper canoes and kayaks (strips that have inlays and/or geometric patterns done with differing wood). How do you create the strips that have those details and still be able to bend them around the forms? Do you laminate them onto a thin strip in the middle? Examples:
The deck details: http://olp09.files.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... 000012.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The line in the sides (showing inside and outside): http://www.canadiancanoes.com/Courses_i ... EB%209.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks,
Ron T.
- BigGabe63
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
Not what I was hoping this post was about..
Re: Stripper boat strip question
I am afraid to ask what you expected, but I did try to phrase the topic well.
- gerald
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
You gotta start somewhere. Possibly one of the biggest reasons that 3/4" X 1/4" is the standard is because 1 X whatever material is basically 3/4". You can use anything you want, but wider strips tend not to follow the crossectional curve of the hull very well. Sanding the edges down on wider strips of a fairly curvy hull will end up paper thin. A standard size is reached by the majorityof experience boat builders because it works. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Sometimes the fencing redwood is slightly smaller as you do the rolling bevel but it's still basicaly 3/4".
If you're going to do a flat panel boat then there are other materials--such as plywood--that may work better. And finally take a look at Bowgarguide's new boat using strips to do a flat panel boat. We are great innovators here on the Boat Builder Forum. You can join us and do weird things as well...
If you're going to do a flat panel boat then there are other materials--such as plywood--that may work better. And finally take a look at Bowgarguide's new boat using strips to do a flat panel boat. We are great innovators here on the Boat Builder Forum. You can join us and do weird things as well...
- bowgarguide
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
Are you saying I am weird.
Going back to my corner
Ron
Going back to my corner
Ron
- gerald
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
Naw...I'm saying you're an innovater...well...maybe a little weird too....
Re: Stripper boat strip question
Gerald,
Thanks for the info on why 3/4in strips. Makes sense now.
So, anyone have any ideas on the second question? I really like the geometric designs, but don't want to bite that one off if I don't have some guidance or at least some warnings from those who have tried it.
I am considering the Merlin canoe for my first go, but I watched and saved the post from Darrell's kayak build and like that design as well. If I do the kayak, I will probably do one with a more open seating area, like a couple of them I have seen on Gerald's posts.
Thanks again,
Ron T.
Thanks for the info on why 3/4in strips. Makes sense now.
So, anyone have any ideas on the second question? I really like the geometric designs, but don't want to bite that one off if I don't have some guidance or at least some warnings from those who have tried it.
I am considering the Merlin canoe for my first go, but I watched and saved the post from Darrell's kayak build and like that design as well. If I do the kayak, I will probably do one with a more open seating area, like a couple of them I have seen on Gerald's posts.
Thanks again,
Ron T.
Re: Stripper boat strip question
If one was to not worry about aesthetics could you Rip up a sheet of 5mm Okume to 3/4" or 1" or 1-1/2" Strips and use like WRC. After sanding, the verneer would be gone on edges, but I think it would be a strong boat. Outside the box.
Re: Stripper boat strip question
Strip width can also be looked at as a "resolution" thing in cross-section. That is to say, wider strips are perfectly feasible on flatter surfaces, and skinnier strips on more tightly-radiused curves. The Outer Island is a prime example whereas a flat aft deck makes a rather radically sharp turnover to the side of the hull. I used 1" wide strips on the flat deck, then 3/8" wide strips on that sharp curve. 3/4" has proven a good all-purpose width. Make sense?
http://www.outdoorplace.org/paddling/Pr ... ector1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm finding that the major difference between a canoe and a kayak is the raised seating position that allows you to get your feet under you, which gives you the ability to easily switch body position while afloat. Or in other words, you can swap from sitting to kneeling, and rotate side to side quite a bit, for sit-too-long relief or casting position or just whatever. Also makes getting in and out of the boat a lot easier while staying bone dry right down to your toes. I can easily jump in my Merlin and go, then come back dry as ever, no wet butt or sneakers. In a kayak you're so committed to your sit bones that none of the above is really possible. You can compare load-carrying and most other parameters when debating canoes and kayaks, but this seating position is the crucial difference in my book.
Building up and creating a feature stripe isn't particularly difficult, but like boat building in general, time-consuming and requiring a certain attention to detail. My buddy John Caldeira has a great web site with lots of hard-won building experience presented for general consumption; here's his take on a feature stripe for a classic strip canoe.thomas4r wrote:So, anyone have any ideas on the second question?
http://www.outdoorplace.org/paddling/Pr ... ector1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm finding that the major difference between a canoe and a kayak is the raised seating position that allows you to get your feet under you, which gives you the ability to easily switch body position while afloat. Or in other words, you can swap from sitting to kneeling, and rotate side to side quite a bit, for sit-too-long relief or casting position or just whatever. Also makes getting in and out of the boat a lot easier while staying bone dry right down to your toes. I can easily jump in my Merlin and go, then come back dry as ever, no wet butt or sneakers. In a kayak you're so committed to your sit bones that none of the above is really possible. You can compare load-carrying and most other parameters when debating canoes and kayaks, but this seating position is the crucial difference in my book.
Re: Stripper boat strip question
Pogo,
Thanks for info. I am already trying out designs for patterns. I am also cleaning out space to setup a strong back. Might take a bit, but I think I am addicted at this point.
The site you referenced is great as well. I have read thru it several times and I am looking for the best book to act as a guide during this process (the IT engineer in me).
Thanks again,
Ron T.
Thanks for info. I am already trying out designs for patterns. I am also cleaning out space to setup a strong back. Might take a bit, but I think I am addicted at this point.
The site you referenced is great as well. I have read thru it several times and I am looking for the best book to act as a guide during this process (the IT engineer in me).
Thanks again,
Ron T.
Re: Stripper boat strip question
I like books, have every one I am aware of on the subject. I recommend Nick Schade's latest: "Building Strip-Planked Boats" as being far above all others -- just my opinion. "The New Kayak Shop" by Chris Kulczyski is my top choice for S&G method, and I always recommend getting both as a matter of course. Anything Ted Moores put out comes next. Then just follow the trail Amazon lays out....thomas4r wrote:....I am looking for the best book to act as a guide during this process (the IT engineer in me).....
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
Pogo wrote:I recommend Nick Schade's latest: "Building Strip-Planked Boats" as being far above all others
I also like this one, I have not built a full stipper but I found it very informative.
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Re: Stripper boat strip question
Pogo wrote:
I'm finding that the major difference between a canoe and a kayak is the raised seating position that allows you to get your feet under you, which gives you the ability to easily switch body position while afloat. Or in other words, you can swap from sitting to kneeling, and rotate side to side quite a bit, for sit-too-long relief or casting position or just whatever. Also makes getting in and out of the boat a lot easier while staying bone dry right down to your toes. I can easily jump in my Merlin and go, then come back dry as ever, no wet butt or sneakers. In a kayak you're so committed to your sit bones that none of the above is really possible. You can compare load-carrying and most other parameters when debating canoes and kayaks, but this seating position is the crucial difference in my book.
I have been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks. I want to build a canoe but the designs I have been looking at seem to have a higher profile than a kayak. I tend to paddle in the wind a lot and have been blown around in the pirogue. Is this not another major difference?
I know Pogo's Merlin has a lower sheer line than most kayaks, do you experience much weather cocking in it?
Re: Stripper boat strip question
That's the thing about getting ALL the books on the subject; if you really want to learn stuff, each book has different useful perspectives and tidbits that are very well worth knowing. One of my favorites is the "story stick" that came from either the Cunningham or Morris traditional skin-on-frame kayak building book. It shows how to sit on a plank kayak-style, balance self and plank on a broom handle, and mark off the locations where the backband would go, sit bones (locates seat), thighs, heels, balls of feet, and the overall center of gravity. Then transfer your data to a lighter stick (similar to a yardstick), and use it to put in whatever boat you're building, whenever you want; just line up the COG with the boat's center of bouyancy, and all seat, foot brace, etc., positions are instantly located. VERY handy item, and cost nothing.
Yep, I loves me books, alright.
As you hear over and over again, there's no perfect small boat; all are compromises. Yes, canoes are subject to wind (and yes, I live and most often paddle on the coast), and are not generally as fast as a kayak. But the advantages are many: they're very easy to handle out of the water, they're extremely car-top friendly, they carry gear and equipment better than anything, can't beat 'em for creature comfort, you can stand up in 'em LOTS easier, and you can stay dry, dry, dry in 'em. I fought trying a canoe for the longest time for that exact reason: windage. But once I tried it, I found battling the wind not as bad as feared, and well worth handling in order to gain those good points. In fact, I don't find wind to be a problem at all; what I dislike most is the relative lack of speed next to a sea kayak.
My Merlin never weather- or lee cocks because it's trimmed right on the button. Another advantage of driving a canoe (or at least, one with a sliding seat).
I've been considering building a second Merlin -- because I'm so happy with its overall performance -- that would be modified to sport radically lowered sheer lines, and with airtight compartments with hatches fore and aft, to arrive at something similar to what Gerald designs. But there just isn't enough PITA associated with the "stock" Merlin to urge such a project forward; the wind problem is more perceived than realized. Whatever, the point remains: you can always build a canoe with lowered lines to handle winds more efficiently if you want....
Yep, I loves me books, alright.
As you hear over and over again, there's no perfect small boat; all are compromises. Yes, canoes are subject to wind (and yes, I live and most often paddle on the coast), and are not generally as fast as a kayak. But the advantages are many: they're very easy to handle out of the water, they're extremely car-top friendly, they carry gear and equipment better than anything, can't beat 'em for creature comfort, you can stand up in 'em LOTS easier, and you can stay dry, dry, dry in 'em. I fought trying a canoe for the longest time for that exact reason: windage. But once I tried it, I found battling the wind not as bad as feared, and well worth handling in order to gain those good points. In fact, I don't find wind to be a problem at all; what I dislike most is the relative lack of speed next to a sea kayak.
My Merlin never weather- or lee cocks because it's trimmed right on the button. Another advantage of driving a canoe (or at least, one with a sliding seat).
I've been considering building a second Merlin -- because I'm so happy with its overall performance -- that would be modified to sport radically lowered sheer lines, and with airtight compartments with hatches fore and aft, to arrive at something similar to what Gerald designs. But there just isn't enough PITA associated with the "stock" Merlin to urge such a project forward; the wind problem is more perceived than realized. Whatever, the point remains: you can always build a canoe with lowered lines to handle winds more efficiently if you want....
Re: Stripper boat strip question
This detail is in a fairly flat section on the deck. I will be able to shape it once I have finished stripping the the whole surface.thomas4r wrote:
Also, I have seen some really cool designs in the stripper canoes and kayaks (strips that have inlays and/or geometric patterns done with differing wood). How do you create the strips that have those details and still be able to bend them around the forms? Do you laminate them onto a thin strip in the middle? Examples:
The deck details: http://olp09.files.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... 000012.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The line in the sides (showing inside and outside): http://www.canadiancanoes.com/Courses_i ... EB%209.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks,
Ron T.
Re: Stripper boat strip question
ojdidit,
Great looking design. Is that section of the deck going to stay flat, or will you have to steam that section to get it to mold to the curves, possibly on the edges?
Ron T.
Great looking design. Is that section of the deck going to stay flat, or will you have to steam that section to get it to mold to the curves, possibly on the edges?
Ron T.