End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
This is the sort of job that's liable to land in your shop when you've gained something of a reputation for not being smart enough to say no when you probably should. The scope of this project is to install an over-stern rudder in such a way as to be interchangeable with the existing under-stern rudder. I thought some of y'all might get a kick out of seeing what a world-class K-1 sprint kayak looks like. This one, a Vajda, is 17' x -you ready?- 15". Weighs 26 lbs with everything aboard and ready to go. This includes ballast, for this class of race specifies a 26-pound minimum weight in the rules.
By the way, my definition of a "REAL" race boat is one where there's basically no hope of doing anything else in it. At all. Ever. This is such a boat. You may safely forget about doing any fishing from it for pretty much as long as you live, it just ain't happenin'.
Also thought some of y'all might get a kick out of the fact I'm fixing to do my very first end pour, after all that bellyaching about how much I dislike 'em. But there's little alternative when the hull and deck are joined and access is so restricted. The good news is that the volume will be minimal. But end pour I shall do, for it is clearly the best way to make a good solid rudder mount.
This tree worked out perfectly, holds the boat as though it were grown especially for the purpose; but I've tied off the boat anyway. Alas, I chickened out and postponed the festivities due to weather. The skies look dubious at best, and the forecast threatens a 60% chance of rain. Oh well, as we paddlers always say, "I'll get there eventually."
Check out the driver's seat. In a boat like this you sit as low in the hull as your butt will allow, and unless it's about 6" wide and semi-circular in shape, you ain't sitting on the bottom. The sides slope out the incredible barge-like width of 15" at the top where the coaming is, so you raise the seat 'til you fit and there you are. Better stay away from the pizza and beer if you mean to sprint on a world-class level. Also note the tiller: for steering, it's the thin round bar protruding from the slot in the foot board; you operate the rudder with your toes. Not shown is the stirrup, but I'll show it later, when I've installed it, and same goes for all the rest of this stuff too.
Oh, that's a carbon-kevlar weave cloth you're looking at in there, that's why it looks kind of funny. The boat is vacuum-bagged so there's not an atom of excess polyvinyl, which is what I think it was made with.
Above: the under-stern rudder. Better be careful around that thing, I've seen plenty of duller knives. Really, that sucker it dangerous looking!
And here's the aluminum over-stern rudder. A lot of these get installed on Texas boats for obvious reasons. But you seldom see such conversions made on surfskis, don't ask me why.
I'll update this post as new developments take place.
By the way, my definition of a "REAL" race boat is one where there's basically no hope of doing anything else in it. At all. Ever. This is such a boat. You may safely forget about doing any fishing from it for pretty much as long as you live, it just ain't happenin'.
Also thought some of y'all might get a kick out of the fact I'm fixing to do my very first end pour, after all that bellyaching about how much I dislike 'em. But there's little alternative when the hull and deck are joined and access is so restricted. The good news is that the volume will be minimal. But end pour I shall do, for it is clearly the best way to make a good solid rudder mount.
This tree worked out perfectly, holds the boat as though it were grown especially for the purpose; but I've tied off the boat anyway. Alas, I chickened out and postponed the festivities due to weather. The skies look dubious at best, and the forecast threatens a 60% chance of rain. Oh well, as we paddlers always say, "I'll get there eventually."
Check out the driver's seat. In a boat like this you sit as low in the hull as your butt will allow, and unless it's about 6" wide and semi-circular in shape, you ain't sitting on the bottom. The sides slope out the incredible barge-like width of 15" at the top where the coaming is, so you raise the seat 'til you fit and there you are. Better stay away from the pizza and beer if you mean to sprint on a world-class level. Also note the tiller: for steering, it's the thin round bar protruding from the slot in the foot board; you operate the rudder with your toes. Not shown is the stirrup, but I'll show it later, when I've installed it, and same goes for all the rest of this stuff too.
Oh, that's a carbon-kevlar weave cloth you're looking at in there, that's why it looks kind of funny. The boat is vacuum-bagged so there's not an atom of excess polyvinyl, which is what I think it was made with.
Above: the under-stern rudder. Better be careful around that thing, I've seen plenty of duller knives. Really, that sucker it dangerous looking!
And here's the aluminum over-stern rudder. A lot of these get installed on Texas boats for obvious reasons. But you seldom see such conversions made on surfskis, don't ask me why.
I'll update this post as new developments take place.
- Light Keeper's Kid
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Anyone over 18 paddle that thing
Mike
Mike
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Actually, the original owner is getting back into world-class racing, going to some championship thing in Australia in a month or so, and he's about fifty. The new and current owner is much nearer to sixty, and just finished his first race, the Colorado 100. He bought this boat for training.
Feel better now? No???
Feel better now? No???
- gerald
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Very nice boat. I'd like to paddle it. You're probably right--should be polyvinylester (commonly known as vinylester) that it was made with. 'bout the only way to add an overstern rudder to something like this is with an endpour. Thanks for the post. Look forward to updates.
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Yeah, there you go, I couldn't recall the name of that stuff. There's at least one other way to mount an overstern rudder, as on my own K-1. It has plates that slip along the hull sides, and machine screws and nuts are run crossways thru-hull to fasten 'er on. It is said the be the "old way", and this installation is the "new way". The new way is s'pposed to be more responsive.gerald wrote:polyvinylester (commonly known as vinylester)
I'd like to paddle it too, but there's always that little nagging problem of how to stay in it long enough to get anywhere. I doubt you'd any more luck in this boat than you had in my K-1 at Inks Lake in '05. In fact, I have reason to believe this one's less stable yet.
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
I llike looking at the technology and engineering, but, I physically outgrew that thing when I was a sophmore in HS! Way to many spuds, gravy and cold beer in my history to ever hope.
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Tell ya what -- racing kayaks and/or canoes is a whole lot more than a matter of boats. Way too much emphasis is put on hull design, etc., around here (and curiously, nobody has ever even mentioned paddles that I can recall), but what it really boils down to is whether you're an ATHLETE or not. I am not, and that is why I don't race. Further still, there's more to being an athlete than having muscles, skills, and gear; it's the ATTITUDE!
Sorry to leave it so cryptically, but after several false starts I found I cannot find words for what I'm thinking, or even be sure I understand what I'm thinking. All I know is that I'm getting to where I can tell a racer when I see one (but can't tell him much -- ha ha, old joke).
Sorry to leave it so cryptically, but after several false starts I found I cannot find words for what I'm thinking, or even be sure I understand what I'm thinking. All I know is that I'm getting to where I can tell a racer when I see one (but can't tell him much -- ha ha, old joke).
- bowgarguide
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Pogo
Do you still have your K1.
Its like every sport when you are starting equipment makes a big difference,as you get to the top levels in any sport it is 1% percent equipment 9 p% phyisical and 90 % mental.
Ron
Dang cant believe I just agreed with Pogo again
Do you still have your K1.
Its like every sport when you are starting equipment makes a big difference,as you get to the top levels in any sport it is 1% percent equipment 9 p% phyisical and 90 % mental.
Ron
Dang cant believe I just agreed with Pogo again
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Ron, I've said it before and I'll say it again ...... I see you creeping inexorably towards fairly begging for rolling lessons........
Ummm, seriously ..... as a matter of fact I DO still have my K-1, and even got to watch it go for a spin around the lake a couple days ago. It was pronounced "a very stable boat". It's the same one I took to the Texas Kayak Builders Bash at Inks Lake in April 2005 as the subject of a fun little contest we had: to see who could make it the farthest paddling it. It was great and hilarious fun, even had a pretty respectable line of grinning faces waiting to take their turn. Gerald was one of 'em, and all I can say is that he made it a little further than I did. In fact, if I recall correctly he came in second place. First place was far and away taken by Doug Rhude, a 7-time Water Safari Solo Unlimited finisher, who managed a very fast 200 or so yards before it became necessary to institute a turn ...... and that was the end of that little voyage. Doug was at the Roundup, and never missed a single Bash. His TWS finishes were in self-built CLC Pax 20's.
Historical Note: My K-1 was given to me by a local fisherman who found it tangled up in a trash pile underneath the Kemah-Seabrook bridge. I tried my absolute best to reunite it with its owner to no avail, and have kept it ever since. It's 17' long, made of honeycomb core kevlar composite, was converted to an over-stern rudder much like we've been talking about here, and weighs 10.2 lbs all up and ready to go. There's precious little evidence as to who made it or where it has been, but sports a sticker saying "1896 Olympic Games Trials".
The more I think about it, the more I believe I'll have to pose it for a few photos beside this young and studly new K-1 ..... would be cool to see the two side by side, eh?
Ummm, seriously ..... as a matter of fact I DO still have my K-1, and even got to watch it go for a spin around the lake a couple days ago. It was pronounced "a very stable boat". It's the same one I took to the Texas Kayak Builders Bash at Inks Lake in April 2005 as the subject of a fun little contest we had: to see who could make it the farthest paddling it. It was great and hilarious fun, even had a pretty respectable line of grinning faces waiting to take their turn. Gerald was one of 'em, and all I can say is that he made it a little further than I did. In fact, if I recall correctly he came in second place. First place was far and away taken by Doug Rhude, a 7-time Water Safari Solo Unlimited finisher, who managed a very fast 200 or so yards before it became necessary to institute a turn ...... and that was the end of that little voyage. Doug was at the Roundup, and never missed a single Bash. His TWS finishes were in self-built CLC Pax 20's.
Historical Note: My K-1 was given to me by a local fisherman who found it tangled up in a trash pile underneath the Kemah-Seabrook bridge. I tried my absolute best to reunite it with its owner to no avail, and have kept it ever since. It's 17' long, made of honeycomb core kevlar composite, was converted to an over-stern rudder much like we've been talking about here, and weighs 10.2 lbs all up and ready to go. There's precious little evidence as to who made it or where it has been, but sports a sticker saying "1896 Olympic Games Trials".
The more I think about it, the more I believe I'll have to pose it for a few photos beside this young and studly new K-1 ..... would be cool to see the two side by side, eh?
Last edited by Pogo on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Now that is a boat I could roll...... At least half way.
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Damn cool, I'll pass on the ride. Hell I didn't get a full 8 second ride on the Cormorant first try.
- Night Wing
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
As small as I am, at 155 pounds, I don't think I could fit into that boat with it's 15" width. That boat is really narrow.
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Update: The end pour has been ... well. poured. The holes in the boat were sealed with garbage bag and tape in case of rain, the hull was tied off to the tree in case of gravity, and the stern was set in a bucket of frozen margaritas in case the epoxy kicked too hot. I've got all bases covered, nothing can posibly goo worngg.
Rudder Installation on a REAL Race Boat
Nothing went wrong. But moving right along....
Well, this was just about the most nerve-wracking thing I've done on a boat project in a while. Drilling a 9/16" diameter x 2" deep hole in a high-dollar hull that's 3/4" wide where the hole needs to go? Better get it right the first time! I decided cutting hatches in a stripper deck is plumb relaxing in comparison. But we got-r-done without incident. Note the tape on the drill bit; that's my depth gage. It's easy - as in REAL easy - to end up poking all the way through....
I started by drilling an excrutiatingly accurate 1/8" diameter hole, and slowly worked my way up through the sizes 'til I got all the way up to the required 9/16". I wish I had counted how many bits I used in all, but it was at least a dozen steadily increasing sizes. I could've just jigged the hull up to the drill press, but I was playing with various angles the whole way too, to make sure I liked the final placement. Besides, there wasn't nuthin' on TV anyway....
This is a Delrin insert that the rudder pin plugs into, and what I must install in the hull. But epoxy doesn't like to stick to plastic. So I cut a series of grooves on opposing sides, and there just ain't no way that dude's ever coming out now.
Here's the rudder with its mount epoxied in place, and today I'm rigging the control cables. I'm using string and tape to play with angles and configuration, want to be sure I like it from every possible angle before I start drilling any holes. Check out the clearance between the black rudder post insert and the sheer seam (blue line). Vertically, it's less than 1/16" -- I'm still mopping sweat.
Well, this was just about the most nerve-wracking thing I've done on a boat project in a while. Drilling a 9/16" diameter x 2" deep hole in a high-dollar hull that's 3/4" wide where the hole needs to go? Better get it right the first time! I decided cutting hatches in a stripper deck is plumb relaxing in comparison. But we got-r-done without incident. Note the tape on the drill bit; that's my depth gage. It's easy - as in REAL easy - to end up poking all the way through....
I started by drilling an excrutiatingly accurate 1/8" diameter hole, and slowly worked my way up through the sizes 'til I got all the way up to the required 9/16". I wish I had counted how many bits I used in all, but it was at least a dozen steadily increasing sizes. I could've just jigged the hull up to the drill press, but I was playing with various angles the whole way too, to make sure I liked the final placement. Besides, there wasn't nuthin' on TV anyway....
This is a Delrin insert that the rudder pin plugs into, and what I must install in the hull. But epoxy doesn't like to stick to plastic. So I cut a series of grooves on opposing sides, and there just ain't no way that dude's ever coming out now.
Here's the rudder with its mount epoxied in place, and today I'm rigging the control cables. I'm using string and tape to play with angles and configuration, want to be sure I like it from every possible angle before I start drilling any holes. Check out the clearance between the black rudder post insert and the sheer seam (blue line). Vertically, it's less than 1/16" -- I'm still mopping sweat.
- preacher
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Where you gonna put the rod racks and depth finder
That boat looks like a surface to air missle, and probably as fast as one. I'd need a giant shoe spoon to get my posterior in it
That boat looks like a surface to air missle, and probably as fast as one. I'd need a giant shoe spoon to get my posterior in it
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Doin' it right just does cause some tension, doesn't it?? I built some long range rifles and did a whole lot of work with tiny emory points, squaring things and doing little turns to make sure that the action seated, correctly. Had a lot of old t-shirts die on the alter of a prime grade of jeweler's polish, too! BUT! There ain't nothin' like pourin' 5 in the X ring @ 800 meters on the first serious test to make you feel just wunnnnerfullll! Great job, Pogo!
- preacher
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
THAT, is some excellent shooting!barditch wrote: There ain't nothin' like pourin' 5 in the X ring @ 800 meters on the first serious test to make you feel just wunnnnerfulll
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Yeah, but, I was shooting off the bench! The guy I built it for was shooting 1000 meters, prone! He went 16x @ Camp Perry! Kicked my tush right into the pear patch (I went 9x--15th). Thing that made me proud was that rifle finished in the money for many years at different levels. Decent work is rewarded at some level, maybe just the builder's but, he knows.... Betcha a bowl of peach cobbler that ol' Gerald, or (gasp) Pogo, gets a little glint in his eye when one of his boats does well in competition. It's just normal! That boat you've got in process right now intrigues me, because of its overall size/characteristics...you could have a happy bay runner there!preacher wrote:THAT, is some excellent shooting!barditch wrote: There ain't nothin' like pourin' 5 in the X ring @ 800 meters on the first serious test to make you feel just wunnnnerfulll
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
All finished, that was a fun project and the owner is thrilled with it. Here's what it looks like:
Here are the exit tubes for the control lines....
And here's a shot showing what's going on inside. I made a sort of T-handle looking affair that serves a couple functions: first, it plugs the rudder tube for the understern rudder when it's not being used to prevent leaking. Second, it gives us a place to mount control line guides to make it easy for the owner to rig and un-rig via the hatch. If you look closely, there's a second pin off to the side; it's there to keep this little fitting from rotating.
Below, a photo of the foot brace. Another part of the job was to cut a slot in the new "pull bar" and install it (see photo way up at top). A pull bar is a sort of stirrup that the padder's toes pull against to provide a connection to the boat. The steering tiller interfered with the pull bar, and my task was to put a slot in it. It looked slightly daunting due to the curvy shape, but the router table was the tool of choice and made short work of it.
Here are the exit tubes for the control lines....
And here's a shot showing what's going on inside. I made a sort of T-handle looking affair that serves a couple functions: first, it plugs the rudder tube for the understern rudder when it's not being used to prevent leaking. Second, it gives us a place to mount control line guides to make it easy for the owner to rig and un-rig via the hatch. If you look closely, there's a second pin off to the side; it's there to keep this little fitting from rotating.
Below, a photo of the foot brace. Another part of the job was to cut a slot in the new "pull bar" and install it (see photo way up at top). A pull bar is a sort of stirrup that the padder's toes pull against to provide a connection to the boat. The steering tiller interfered with the pull bar, and my task was to put a slot in it. It looked slightly daunting due to the curvy shape, but the router table was the tool of choice and made short work of it.
- gerald
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Great job. I like it.
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Just excellent!
- Light Keeper's Kid
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
WOW Great getting to see a master at work
Mike
Mike
Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Eh, nuthin' to it. Tell ya what, though: I'm STILL having nightmares about drilling that stinkin' BIG hole....
But seriously, thanks for the kind words, fellers!
But seriously, thanks for the kind words, fellers!
- Light Keeper's Kid
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Like drilling an oil well,you get one sot
Mike
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Re: End Pour for a REAL Race Boat
Very cool post! I have enjoyed it.