Actually the Brazos River is pretty tame compared to what we saw in the Great Castell River Race on the LLano River. That's my new criteria for short rocky race durability. Of course--stupidity on my part didn't help at all....Pogo wrote:
On this board, the standard by which all boats are judged is the dreaded Brazos River, which chews up and spits out all but the stoutest, and anything less than full interior glass is merely begging for disaster.....
Not really, it just seems that way sometimes. Mostly it's just an opportunity for me to poke fun at Gerald, Ron, Darrell, and whoever else is part of that Brazos River Rat Pack.
Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
- gerald
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Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Re: tape the seams
Actually, I'm not so sure ANY of 'em are all that bad. My poor little underweight boats seem to survive 'em just fine.gerald wrote:Actually the Brazos River is pretty tame compared to what we saw in the Great Castell River Race on the LLano River.....
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Re: tape the seams
I seriously doubt that you've been doing with your boats what I've been doing with mine. 'Bout the only way to put this dog to rest is to spend some time doing some of the more difficult races with me and others (...like Ron?). The Neches race, Great Castell River Race, maybe the Junior Safari. That's called put up or shut up. Surely a forty something paddler in a light weight boat such as yours can beat a 60 something paddler in a tank. Heck...maybe we could even do the CR100 together next year. I plan on it. See you there....?Pogo wrote:Actually, I'm not so sure ANY of 'em are all that bad. My poor little underweight boats seem to survive 'em just fine.gerald wrote:Actually the Brazos River is pretty tame compared to what we saw in the Great Castell River Race on the LLano River.....
Re: tape the seams
I just got back from the CR100, spent all day Saturday hanging out with three veteran TWS racers and boat builders, so I'm carrying an especially large and fresh load of river racing strategies and perspectives in my head right now. There are all sorts of differing philosophies regarding layups, design/stability, rigging, etc., etc., etc. Also makes a difference what the course is you're talking about; same serious racer will use different boats on different rivers and/or for different distances, so there's no one-size-fits-all about it. Anyone trying to push the idea that his way is the only way just ain't gonna fly ..... it's pretty obvious that they all work, it becomes a matter of what you believe is going to carry your day the best.
I've said it plenty of times before, but here goes again: I'm not interested in competing, not my cup of tea, but I sure do enjoy watching the races. But I still think about it a lot, hard not to .... so, if I were to enter the CR100 next year, I can practically guarantee my boat would look a lot different than yours. It'd probably look a whole lot like a Spencer Wave, and weigh no more than 30 lbs. Or maybe take the easy route and whip out a Pax 20. For the Castell race I'd push plastic, no question about it. I like wood boats, but I don't like dogma.
I've said it plenty of times before, but here goes again: I'm not interested in competing, not my cup of tea, but I sure do enjoy watching the races. But I still think about it a lot, hard not to .... so, if I were to enter the CR100 next year, I can practically guarantee my boat would look a lot different than yours. It'd probably look a whole lot like a Spencer Wave, and weigh no more than 30 lbs. Or maybe take the easy route and whip out a Pax 20. For the Castell race I'd push plastic, no question about it. I like wood boats, but I don't like dogma.
- gerald
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Wow! pogo--I agree with you completely. I'm flabergasted! You have said exactly what I've been saying all along. Your sentence--"...Anyone trying to push the idea that his way is the only way just ain't gonna fly ..... it's pretty obvious that they all work, it becomes a matter of what you believe is going to carry your day the best..."-- is absolutely right. I don't guess there's any more to be said about this. Building a lightweight boat is desireable. I truly believe that we should strive to build the lightest boat that will serve our purposes.
As for competing--well, I can't anymore. Too old and the body is giving out. I can still hold my own with the seniors and hope to continue doing that for a long time. I just like to paddle long distances under a variety of conditions and see a lot of very interesting scenery. The races do that for me. As long as I am happy with what I do in the races I will continue to do it. I don't care if I'm last as long as I am happy with my effort. As for the CR100 you have no idea what my ideal boat would look like. I have several good designs--my 18' marathon boat, the 20' X 20" Stilleto, the srchr16, and a couple of decked canoes. This depends upon what my physical requirement will be for the race. I'm not sure I can stay in the Stilleto for long enough periods. The Spencer Wave is a great boat for some of the marathons including the CR100. I wish I had enough time to build one similar. The Pax20 is also a pretty good boat for that. Doug Rhude says the Pax20 is more stable than the Pax18. I would certainly also consider something like Jonathan Winter's Barracuda or Cirrus. Take a look at the Wenonah Advantage and Voyager, or the Sawyer Shockwave. Wow...I love'em all. For the Castell race I would also push plastic, but since I build and push the durability factor of the wood composite boats I'll stick with them.
Anyway...thanks for your great post. Let me rephrase what I said earlier. I now invite you to join us sometimes on some of the longer training runs and/or a few selected races. Not to compete, but to paddle along as friends and enjoy the camaraderie. I already know that your boats will survive. I would be very happy to see you at the CR100 as well. I plan on being there this next year.
As for competing--well, I can't anymore. Too old and the body is giving out. I can still hold my own with the seniors and hope to continue doing that for a long time. I just like to paddle long distances under a variety of conditions and see a lot of very interesting scenery. The races do that for me. As long as I am happy with what I do in the races I will continue to do it. I don't care if I'm last as long as I am happy with my effort. As for the CR100 you have no idea what my ideal boat would look like. I have several good designs--my 18' marathon boat, the 20' X 20" Stilleto, the srchr16, and a couple of decked canoes. This depends upon what my physical requirement will be for the race. I'm not sure I can stay in the Stilleto for long enough periods. The Spencer Wave is a great boat for some of the marathons including the CR100. I wish I had enough time to build one similar. The Pax20 is also a pretty good boat for that. Doug Rhude says the Pax20 is more stable than the Pax18. I would certainly also consider something like Jonathan Winter's Barracuda or Cirrus. Take a look at the Wenonah Advantage and Voyager, or the Sawyer Shockwave. Wow...I love'em all. For the Castell race I would also push plastic, but since I build and push the durability factor of the wood composite boats I'll stick with them.
Anyway...thanks for your great post. Let me rephrase what I said earlier. I now invite you to join us sometimes on some of the longer training runs and/or a few selected races. Not to compete, but to paddle along as friends and enjoy the camaraderie. I already know that your boats will survive. I would be very happy to see you at the CR100 as well. I plan on being there this next year.
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
That's right, I don't know what your CR100 boat might look like .... but by the same token you can't 'seriously doubt that I've been doing with my boats what you've been doing with yours', either. I mean, it's pretty obvious from the way you and Ron talk that you don't know what I do or don't do, and it's enough to give me heartburn sometimes. It was a real drag that the weather wasn't more conducive to paddling at the Roundup, as I was really looking forward to a bunch of us getting on the water together and seeing first hand what we do with our boats and how. I absolutely agree it'd be GREAT if we could spend more time on the water actually paddling together. I'll be at Inks Lake in October for the Messabout.....
I always want to enter and run the race on Race Day, but never feel much like it on the other 364 days of the year. But I never say never; there's always a possibility I'll get all excited and join in some day..... But if I ever do, it ain't gonna be no lily-dippin' funsy trip, I'm gonna RACE.
I always want to enter and run the race on Race Day, but never feel much like it on the other 364 days of the year. But I never say never; there's always a possibility I'll get all excited and join in some day..... But if I ever do, it ain't gonna be no lily-dippin' funsy trip, I'm gonna RACE.
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Chill out pogo. Nobody cares what any of us are doing. Let's just have fun.
...and in my next race I'm gonna look for some broken down octogenarian to draft--then I'll pounce on him (or her) at the end.....
...maybe beat him by a couple of lengths....
...yeah!!
...and in my next race I'm gonna look for some broken down octogenarian to draft--then I'll pounce on him (or her) at the end.....
...maybe beat him by a couple of lengths....
...yeah!!
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Just for the record, I am chilled out. No strain here, I tell ya, sorry if it came across like crap.
Last edited by Pogo on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Oh, and as a matter of fact, about the CR-100......
I was absolutely amazed and astounded at how many really .... ummm .... "non-race-friendly" .... boats there were at the start of the race. Notice I didn't say at the finish. Lots of big plastic SOT's such as we'd all recognize here on TKF, bunches of those 8-foot blue and white plastic Pelican things, a couple of those 100-lb plastic tandem canoes with built-in ice chests. MAN! I have to say this: I'm way too lazy to try anything like that! If I were facing a 100 mile non-stop paddle, I'd want every advantage I could get! I want the most efficient boat, the most efficient paddle, the most efficient everything else I could get my hands on, and I'd want to learn how to use it as effectively as humanly possible!!
It's probably a cinch that I'm just badly out of step with the rest of the world. I don't mean to be, that's just how it shook out. But I cannot even begin to understand why on earth anyone would enter something like the Colorado River 100 canoe race with an 8-foot Pelican POS. I mean, WTF???
PS: I do not normally consider 8' Pelicans POS's; in fact, I think they're great. I got my start in something very similar, and appreciate how little boats like that make our world accessible to all ..... and they're even pretty darn decent performers for what they are. But that's the key phrase: what they are. They simply do not belong in a race. And the fact that none of them made it so far as Plum Park makes me feel justified in saying so. That's one of the things that keeps me from getting overly enthusiastic about entering a race myself, having to dodge bozos doesn't sound like fun.
I was absolutely amazed and astounded at how many really .... ummm .... "non-race-friendly" .... boats there were at the start of the race. Notice I didn't say at the finish. Lots of big plastic SOT's such as we'd all recognize here on TKF, bunches of those 8-foot blue and white plastic Pelican things, a couple of those 100-lb plastic tandem canoes with built-in ice chests. MAN! I have to say this: I'm way too lazy to try anything like that! If I were facing a 100 mile non-stop paddle, I'd want every advantage I could get! I want the most efficient boat, the most efficient paddle, the most efficient everything else I could get my hands on, and I'd want to learn how to use it as effectively as humanly possible!!
It's probably a cinch that I'm just badly out of step with the rest of the world. I don't mean to be, that's just how it shook out. But I cannot even begin to understand why on earth anyone would enter something like the Colorado River 100 canoe race with an 8-foot Pelican POS. I mean, WTF???
PS: I do not normally consider 8' Pelicans POS's; in fact, I think they're great. I got my start in something very similar, and appreciate how little boats like that make our world accessible to all ..... and they're even pretty darn decent performers for what they are. But that's the key phrase: what they are. They simply do not belong in a race. And the fact that none of them made it so far as Plum Park makes me feel justified in saying so. That's one of the things that keeps me from getting overly enthusiastic about entering a race myself, having to dodge bozos doesn't sound like fun.
- gerald
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
The Colorado River is big enough that you don't have to dodge anybody. After the first few miles the little short inefficient boats are behind you anyway. They're just out for some adventure and fun. The training sessions in the weeks before the race give those who are a little more serious a chance to get a good feel of the river and what it feels to paddle some distance at speed. During the race, sometime near Plum Park but certainly before La Grange the fastest of the pros will catch most of the adventure paddlers. The fastest of the adventure paddlers will beat some of the pros. It's a blast when you pull out at the end and wobble up the hill....
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Boy oh boy leave you guys for a few days and your at it again
I think the Castell race at that level was pretty extreme.I had a ball,and sure hope I get to do it next year.
I have to say my boat and Geralds handled the abuse and rocks without missing a lick,no plastic for me ,if this layup I use wouldnt have stood up I just build another heavier in the right places.
Thanks Darrel
Pogo Take some Pepsin AC for your heartburn cause I really dont think you abuse your boats like we do up here on a day to day basis. (boy that ought to winde him up)
All my life I have worked behind engineers that designed stuff that failed because it was built to light in certain places,I would have to go in and repair and REBRACE FOR EXTREMES THEY DIDNT PLAN FOR . Extremes will get you ,to light can hurt performance and durability to heavy is also a pain
Oh and Pogo if you check up on some nautical design they will tell you that weight is not always a detriment to speed ,making you sit deep enough in the water to optimize your design is a benefit.
Ron
Be like Goldy Locks not to heavy not to light build it just right
I think the Castell race at that level was pretty extreme.I had a ball,and sure hope I get to do it next year.
I have to say my boat and Geralds handled the abuse and rocks without missing a lick,no plastic for me ,if this layup I use wouldnt have stood up I just build another heavier in the right places.
Thanks Darrel
Pogo Take some Pepsin AC for your heartburn cause I really dont think you abuse your boats like we do up here on a day to day basis. (boy that ought to winde him up)
All my life I have worked behind engineers that designed stuff that failed because it was built to light in certain places,I would have to go in and repair and REBRACE FOR EXTREMES THEY DIDNT PLAN FOR . Extremes will get you ,to light can hurt performance and durability to heavy is also a pain
Oh and Pogo if you check up on some nautical design they will tell you that weight is not always a detriment to speed ,making you sit deep enough in the water to optimize your design is a benefit.
Ron
Be like Goldy Locks not to heavy not to light build it just right
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Around in circles 'til we're all dizzy. You're talking about design capacity, and I'm talking about hull weight. No racer ever built a boat heavier to make it faster. The boat may have been designed to carry a given amount of weight, but that's something entirely different. I was a structural steel designer for twenty years, and I saw one huge enormous crapload more things perform perfectly than fail.bowgarguide wrote:....they will tell you that weight is not always a detriment to speed ,making you sit deep enough in the water to optimize your design is a benefit.
You have rocks where you live and I don't, and that's about the only thing I can possible agree with....
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Yep that woke POGO up
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Now I understand.
Pogo and I will never agree on stuff.I spent 43 years in the steel business . A lot of that time was spent retrofitting equipment that was miss designed sending back plans that had mirro images
wrong measurements are just flat couldnt be installed because of bad designs are a mistake on a cad cam.
I even had three engineers that paid me to go in and proof sets of plans for them.
Yep I understand Pogo and my relationship now.
Ron
Pogo and I will never agree on stuff.I spent 43 years in the steel business . A lot of that time was spent retrofitting equipment that was miss designed sending back plans that had mirro images
wrong measurements are just flat couldnt be installed because of bad designs are a mistake on a cad cam.
I even had three engineers that paid me to go in and proof sets of plans for them.
Yep I understand Pogo and my relationship now.
Ron
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Yep, the guys in the shop/field cussing the dumbasses in the office while the guys in the office are cussing the dumbasses in the shop/field is as old as the hills.
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Well we agree on something
Ron
Ron
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
FYI, I have enjoyed the conversations discussing weight, layups, etc. I have taken away from it that there is DEFINITELY more than one way to skin a cat (or boat for that matter ).
I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I am planning on one layer of 6 ounce cloth on the inside and outside. I want a boat that is comfortable for me to load and unload myself, and yet still be tough enough for me to drag over logs and other portages I may encounter.
Another perspective, as Ron has said, we built these boats, we can damn sure repair them. If I run into a situation where I find that I have build to lite, I can take it back to the shop and add another layer of glass.
Just my inexperienced $0.02
I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I am planning on one layer of 6 ounce cloth on the inside and outside. I want a boat that is comfortable for me to load and unload myself, and yet still be tough enough for me to drag over logs and other portages I may encounter.
Another perspective, as Ron has said, we built these boats, we can damn sure repair them. If I run into a situation where I find that I have build to lite, I can take it back to the shop and add another layer of glass.
Just my inexperienced $0.02
- gerald
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Dogpaddlin: I also enjoy the variety of posts and differences of view. As long as we have the quality of builders we have with the willingness to voice their opinions we're never going to get in a rut. I've always said that you take the best from everybody and improve upon that. I haven't built my best boat yet.....
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
I have a question
6 ounce glass is that per square foot ,yard or what.
Ron
6 ounce glass is that per square foot ,yard or what.
Ron
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
I am pretty sure it is per yard. At least that is what I think I read...
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Dag blast it, I ain't on no extreme! That's what I keep trying to say here!! Omigod, I'm gonna have a heart attack, or a stroke, or all of it together, I just know it....
Here's the deal: my philosophy is form follows function. If the layup is tender, then it's no good. It must be tough enough to withstand what I want to do. In the case of my canoe in particular, what I want to do is stand up in it for fly fishing, and that's very tough on a hull; some Royalex canoes have had problems when people stood in them. I fly fish the Llano, Blanco, Guad, and San Marcos, all of which are known to have a rock or two in them. Of course, my little excursions tend to involve a little paddling around, too. The Merlin handles it all to perfection! No problemo!
My building motto is: "If it breaks, I'll fix it and make it stronger". I've never had to fix anything on the hull, but I did reinforce the gunnels slightly to make cartopping more confidence-inspiring. I've never had to fix anything else to make it stronger either, on any of my boats. Say or think whatever you will, but I call it good.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it........
Ron, per square yard.
Here's the deal: my philosophy is form follows function. If the layup is tender, then it's no good. It must be tough enough to withstand what I want to do. In the case of my canoe in particular, what I want to do is stand up in it for fly fishing, and that's very tough on a hull; some Royalex canoes have had problems when people stood in them. I fly fish the Llano, Blanco, Guad, and San Marcos, all of which are known to have a rock or two in them. Of course, my little excursions tend to involve a little paddling around, too. The Merlin handles it all to perfection! No problemo!
My building motto is: "If it breaks, I'll fix it and make it stronger". I've never had to fix anything on the hull, but I did reinforce the gunnels slightly to make cartopping more confidence-inspiring. I've never had to fix anything else to make it stronger either, on any of my boats. Say or think whatever you will, but I call it good.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it........
Ron, per square yard.
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Extremes may not have been the word to use. What I was getting at is that if boats can be built just taping the seems or laying on multiple layers of glass over the entire hull (which is what I meant by extremes), then I know it can work somewhere in the middle, which is where I am.
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Lissen Bud, if I catch hell, then you're going to catch hell too. Ron will catch hell also, because I was born once upon a time. Gerald is the only one of us who stands a chance of bluebirds and sunshine because he can just rename the thread and delete the posts that rag on him more'n he cares to mess with. Money talks, BS walks, the SOS.
Is this FUN or what???
Is this FUN or what???
- bowgarguide
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Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Dogpaddling in your post with 6 ounce inside and out you will build a tough good boat. That sounds like a good plan to me.
As hard as this will sound Pogo is agreeing with me ,you build the boats to your environment and usage just like he does.
Extremes is exactly the right word for my boat usage, a nice day on the lake with soft sand and mud bottom,to 10 miles an hour in 4 inch water with rocks sticking up and steel . dragging across gravel bars with a weeks camping supplies in the boat,hooking my winch on the boat and dragging it up a thirty foot bank.yea extremes is the right word.
And thats just the normal life of a boat I own.
Ron
Pogo how much of the above do you do with your Merlin
As hard as this will sound Pogo is agreeing with me ,you build the boats to your environment and usage just like he does.
Extremes is exactly the right word for my boat usage, a nice day on the lake with soft sand and mud bottom,to 10 miles an hour in 4 inch water with rocks sticking up and steel . dragging across gravel bars with a weeks camping supplies in the boat,hooking my winch on the boat and dragging it up a thirty foot bank.yea extremes is the right word.
And thats just the normal life of a boat I own.
Ron
Pogo how much of the above do you do with your Merlin
Re: Lightweight boats versus the Tanks....
Why, I believe I very recently posted pretty much what I do with my Merlin. Do you even read this shi.... um, stuff?? Honestly, Ron, I hardly know what to do with you sometimes. But for now, take THIS: <--- triple raspberry for you, amigo... pfffffffffllllpppptttt!!!