TexasKayakFisherman.com est. 2000

Kayak fishing the Lone Star State...


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By bowgarguide
#1318191
I know that length is a big part of the speed(ease of paddling) Gerald is that the reason for the nearly square ends I saw on the high preformance canoes and yaks. Is that to increase the waterline length?.
Ron
User avatar
By gerald
#1318370
Length determines the potential speed. Other factors determine the "ease" of paddling. A short narrow boat is easier to paddle at 3mph than a race boat that is capable of 7mph. The answer to your questions is: Yes....the ends are squared to get all the waterline length they can because they are limited to a specific length. One disadvantage of this is that the boat may not ramp logs as easily. Squared off ends don't look as sexy either. Who wants to go fast when you can look sexy. After this last race looking sexy may be all I have left! Always tradeoffs...
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By TexasZeke
#1318616
gerald wrote:...you think a pink tutu would help?



probably wouldn't hurt anything, but wouldn't the tutu catch wind and slow you down?...hehehe

kevin
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By bowgarguide
#1318617
Dang I was just getting over that visual of Darrel in a pink totu ,now you agggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggI need another drink on that one and I dont drink.
Ron
User avatar
By bowgarguide
#1318621
Ok now you have me confused more than normal,A say 13 ft boat 22 inches wide will be easier to maintain a speed of say 4 mph than a 18 ft boat that is the same width?
Ron
User avatar
By TexasZeke
#1318634
If I was paying attention in class at some point in length you reach a point where the drag against the hull will actually overcome the benefits of length. So if I understood right a shorter boat might be faster than a long boat, or more efficient. Now what those two lengths might be, or how to find them, I haven't a clue

kevin
By barditch
#1318641
gerald wrote:...you think a pink tutu would help?

:shock: :shock: I think that this is the point in the literary discussion where we should refer you to Slowride over on the saltwater board...he's the pink tutu specialist, with a large nod to Double Dip as facilatator. This could be really tacky! It already has driven me to the "drinks cabinet" as the Brits call it! :dance:
By cadruss2004
#1318649
:lol: :lol: :lol: Just don't tell Dean about the pink waders, etc. at Academy :lol: :lol: :lol:
What software(s) or formulae are you using to determine your hull dimension and estimated performance?
User avatar
By gerald
#1318848
bowgarguide wrote:Ok now you have me confused more than normal,A say 13 ft boat 22 inches wide will be easier to maintain a speed of say 4 mph than a 18 ft boat that is the same width?
Ron


Let's back up a minute and not think too much. ALL boats have a speed at which they are the most efficient, ie.--the speed at which the least effort is required to maintain that speed. This does not mean that all boats are equal. For example (and there are a lot of factors we're ignoring) we'll say that a 12' boat takes 2 pounds of effort to maintain 3 mph. Perhaps the 18' boat would take 2.5 pounds effort to maintain 3 mph. This is generally because of the increased drag of the longer boat.

Now to make it more interesting lets' increase speed to 4 mph. The 12' boat takes 8 pounds of pressure to maintain that speed. The 18' boat takes 5 pounds of pressure to maintain that speed. Wave length is becoming a bigger factor here than drag--the longer boat has the advantage here.

Increase the speed to 7 mph. The 12' boat takes 40 pounds of pressure--which is impossible--so it can't go that fast. The 18' boat takes 12 pounds of pressure (all these figures are just examples), ....and it CAN go that fast. But please notice that it takes effort to do it.

The point at which the length cause too much drag is different for different people. For a world class paddler that point is close to 23'. Most rules give length limits for different classes anyway.

What's the best length for us to paddle? That's different for different people for different tasks. For ME the best all around length is 16'. I will certainly be building more 18' boats and definately one 20' X 20" Stilleto, but I can also see me building and using a 14 footer and in some cases a nice 12 footer. Long is not always the best...

Ah yes...just for an experiment take a look at the sleekest, longest boat around. How fast is it going? It's not! There's no paddler in it. For race boats the paddler is MORE than 50% of the equation. There are some people paddling a bathtub who can beat me in my marathon boat....

I don't care...
User avatar
By bowgarguide
#1318950
I am going to keep the pressure on Gerald here.
Ok let design a boat for a couple folks here. Firefly and me,hope you dont mind firefly.
On the day we did the practice run,I noticed John was pretty fast in his sea kayak,just from memory 20 inches wide at the bottom widest point,not sure about the top beam,around 18 ftin length.
Your boat was widder I think you said 28 inches at the widest point and about the same length,18 ft
My boat was 26 inches at the widest point but 15 ft 5 inches long.
In the blow downs you made the comment that my boat was out preforming y'all, but on the straight aways y'all could walk off from me.
John and my boat were v bottoms so the design was similar
Ok here we go I weigh 215 with a little work can get into pretty good shape, always have been pretty strong in the upper body.
Firefly ( no I am not going to step in that trap) just from what I read is a strong paddler and competitor.
What do we need to look for in a boat,length, width. How do we make that decision ,what would you recommend for a person to do to find that perfect boat.

Lets make this a little more complicated ,a perfect boat for the Neches,another for the Trinity.
Ron
User avatar
By gerald
#1319043
Firefly49 is a good, strong paddler. She can benefit from what all of us can. A good, efficient, lighter hull. She has the strength to handle a longer boat. Other than that the type of boat should be what fits the type of paddling SHE wants to do. She IS a competitor.

John's boat is 22" X 17' I believe. A good efficient S&G hull with good maneuverability. I would expect the boat to perform exactly as it did. John is also a very strong paddler. He can handle any boat he decides he wants to handle.

Your boat is 26" wide X 15' 5". Not quite as efficiently designed, but shorter with good maneuverability. That length and the maneuverability helped you in the tight spots. You are a very tenacious paddler.

My boat is 24" X 18' with a symetrical cross section, soft chine. It should be slightly more efficient than the hard chine S&G boats but that would be measrued in very small percentage points. My boat is surprisingly fast but it takes effort.

I've had a lot of people comment on the fact that they have good upper body strength--and that helps--but realize that paddling is a full body exercise. The fact that I dropped out of the Neches Race and have had problems in some others races with leg cramps should show you that. I put a lot of leg into paddling fast. I'm gonna have to work on that. Foot surgery next week isn't going to help.

Anyway...I can't tell you the perfect boat for anybody. I haven't found the perfect boat for me yet! I would actually need a half dozen or more boats for all the different races and paddling I do.

I can answer your question about boats for me though. I'll be building a new 16' boat for most of my racing....maybe two of them. One will be 24" wide and the other will be 28" wide. I also may build a canoe. Hmmm...that's three boats! AND for a flat water race like what I think the Trinity River Challenge is going to be...if I want to go fast...the 20" X 20' Stilleto. Of course, most of the races have different classes. You can take the boat you have and enter the appropriate class. My marathon boat will fit in the sea kayak and touring kayak class at the Trinity River Challenge. I'll probably do the sea kayak class. So there you go--I just named off four boats for two races. Maybe I need a dozen boats.

And then to top it all off--it doesn't matter what boat you paddle or how fast you can paddle because there's always some arrogant young pup who can beat you....

Wish I'd known about racing when I was young...
User avatar
By gerald
#1319463
bowgarguide wrote:You mean I am going to have to build 12 boats and wear a pink tutu to race with you?
Ron


I think I'll start drinking. That mental image is too much even for me....

I had you down as more of a black fishnet stocking sort of guy....high heels....
User avatar
By TexasZeke
#1319575
ya know, I feel like I'm going to open a can of worms here but here goes

wouldn't one of those ultra light (for portages) long, narrow (for speed) sea kayaks like Pogo likes be good for this racing stuff. Maybe either open up the cockpit or configure it where supplies were readily available and go from there

kevin
User avatar
By gerald
#1319666
TexasZeke wrote:ya know, I feel like I'm going to open a can of worms here but here goes

wouldn't one of those ultra light (for portages) long, narrow (for speed) sea kayaks like Pogo likes be good for this racing stuff. Maybe either open up the cockpit or configure it where supplies were readily available and go from there

kevin


Absolutely they would be good for certain types of racing. Light weight boats are good for portages. Long and narrow is good for speed. The tiny cockpit is NOT good for portages or the many times one must jump in and out of the boat. So, yes, opening the cockpit would be a positive. Skinny boats are fast but less stable, so a fatigue factor would set in after awhile. SO...a boat like Pogo's would be good on some of the shorter open water races (some iron men, or women, can last longer). A negative with the Outer Island is that it has so much overhang on each end. With the rules as they are that boat would be giving away a lot of waterline length to a boat designed for racing. And the lightweight factor still means the boat is more fragile than something like my marathon boat with the safari layup. On the Neches River Race I passed two carbon fiber/kevlar racing canoes with holes in them as the paddler was slapping duct tape over the holes. Damage can, and does, occur.
To reiterate: very light weight construction and long skinny boats CAN be used for some racing. My 20' X 20" Stilleto will be a case in point. The weight goal for that boat is 35 pounds.

No can of worms here. The upcoming Trinity River Challenge is probably the best kind of race for a boat like Pogo's. Maybe we can get pogo to attend.
User avatar
By Pogo
#1325432
No, not interested in racing. I began hanging with the race crowd because I wanted to learn the best possible paddle technique, and who better to teach a forward stroke that'll take you over the long haul without killing yourself . . . . . or make shorter trips a breeze? I've stayed with 'em because you never stop learning, and because it turns out to be a heck of a fun and interesting spectator sport for me.

Sea kayaks are pretty much the fastest solo boat you can get your hands on short of a purpose-designed race hull. They are configured to tackle open water, not stillwater, hence the term 'sea' kayak; whereas cockpits are designed for use with spray skirts, and as with hatches, the smaller the opening the more watertight seal can be achieved; the upwards-pointed "elf shoe" ends of the yak are all about dealing with waves to advantage. So yes, the "overhangs" and smaller cockpit openings are very much out of place on stillwater venues, and serve no practical purposes.

But having said that, generalities are always -- ahem, I mean generally -- dangerous, and using them to describe sea kayaks is not otherwise. In a word, they are simply not as tippy as has been suggested here on TKF. Some may be, but not all sea kayaks are created equal. For one thing, they're not always twenty inches wide; there are plenty of popular boats 24 and 25 inches wide, and more than just a few are used comfortably as recreational kayaks for birding and fishing by casual paddlers with no more specialized boat handling skills than anyone else. Some of these boats have surprisingly large and open cockpits. Only a few people actually use spray skirts here in Texas, and far fewer yet know how to roll, let alone have practiced the skill sufficiently to legitimately call it a bombproof combat roll. Go to Armand Bayou any old weekend to see the paddlecraft parade for yourself.

The Outer Island is, among other things, one of the most stable sea kayaks ever. Other factors make it less than perfect for river racing, but stability is not one of them. Of course, stability is a hopelessly subjective subject, and if your mileage is going to vary, it is going to do so the very most right here.

And since I'm on a roll, as it were, I'll go ahead and bust the myth that the Eskimo roll good mostly for the amusement of spectators on shore. Like the high and low braces (and so many other things in life), it's only as good as what you put in it; as with most skills, worthless unless practiced enough to become second-nature. Once the roll becomes intuitive, it raises your safety margin several orders of magnitude. Whitewater paddlers absolutely rely upon rolling, and will not allow noobs to join them on most runs until a reliable combat roll has been demonstrated to their satisfaction. Sea kayak groups are far less stringent because assisted rescues are almost always perfectly feasible. Few have a roll here in Texas because our paddling conditions are just about the safest in the entire freakin' world with warm, shallow water under gentle, if any, currents being the rule. There are three primary reasons why I am big on the roll: First, because I paddle open ocean solo mostly; secondly, because it's how I cool off; and finally, because it's so incredibly FUN. And that list probably would be more honest if presented in reverse. 8)

Here's the glass yak Ron was referring to, my new Valley Nordkapp in its proper element:

Image
User avatar
By bowgarguide
#1325465
Watch out Pogo ,cover your ears :D
I pretty much agree with you on your post,I think a good boat that is well suited for its environment
is going to be pretty specialized ,it can operate in a lot of environments but excels in one.You talk about speed there are a couple reasons for that ,length,18 ft sea yak seems about normal and normally a couple inches narrower, in central TX a 15 ft is considered long and 28 inches a narrow boat.
I think where the tippy stigma got attached to the sea kayaks ,the older ones that were popular were narrow. Now some folks can paddle a 18 inch wide boat and some will have a 36 inch wide canoe upside down. Again width is very personal.

On the TX coast it seems to have two types of boats that are very popular the sot and the sea kayaks each has it on purpose and are worlds apart in design and what they are used for. Geralds river boats will out perform both in the environment we paddle in here in central TX ,they will out preform his in the open ocean
Job and location specific is what governs the design that is best for someone.
I think rolling is ok and more power to folks that enjoy it . It is just not something that fits well other than just playing in my environment
The braces high and low I use occasionally ,but dont need them much up here. I think I have used them in the Llano race a couple times and once going under a log on the Neches. I do know how to use them.
Now dont get use to me agreeing with you. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ron
User avatar
By Pogo
#1325645
The "average" sea kayak is more like 16' x 22". 18-footers are actually rather on the long side in the world of sea kayaks.

Sea kayaks are not popular on the coast, or anywhere else in Texas, and are just generally seldom seen anywhere along the Gulf Coast and southern USA. If there's a concentration of activity involving sea kayaks in Texas, it's in the DFW area, and in the Austin-San Antonio area. Don't ask me how that works, but we all pretty much know each other since we are so few. Those who train seriously often travel to places where that training is far more critical than here.

I never have, and never will, allow anybody to define what an appropriate boat is for me. I'm going to paddle what I think looks like the most fun, and if it involves adaptation, then we're gonna do some adapting. My sea kayaks work well for me everywhere I go. 8)
User avatar
By bowgarguide
#1325780
Thats funny about the length,all the wooden seayaks I have seen are around 18 ft, see I am learning already.
In TX the sot are the most popular yaks around ,now they are not my choice. I guess my boats are closer to a decked canoe than anything else .
A little tale that explains my thinking on location dictates the best boat, last year Mike( Mythman) came up and did some paddling and fishing on the Brazos with Kim and I joined them later that day.
Now Mike is a well respected BTB guy, but his boat made it hard on him that day ,where Kim and my boats were geared for this location. One of these days I am going down and fish with Mike BTB and I can guarantee I will borrow a boat that Mike recomends for that kind of trip.Boils down to a boat that fits the situiation.
Oh and Pogo the only reason folks think seayaks are tippy is you keep talking about rolling over :D :D :D
By rodloos
#1325841
Looking at that photo of Pogo in his new boat, the question that pops into my head is:

How the heck do you do the Eskimo roll and still keep that hat on?! :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:

Assuming I even had a boat suitable for rolling, if I tried it the first that that would happen is I would lose my glasses! I've been wearing them so long I often forget I have them on :)

And yeah, I can envision a few other problems with Eskimo rolls on the Brazos in Summer low-water conditions :) but I can see how it would be refreshing to cool off on lakes and ocean.

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