TexasKayakFisherman.com est. 2000

Kayak fishing the Lone Star State...

By Iamdamoder
Thinking about building the Selway Fisher Esk 14. http://www.selway-fisher.com/Kayak.htm#ESK

Thoughts or warnings wanted. Guess I'll need a really funny tape measure. I have paid my bills with power tool my whole life but never built a boat.

I know she don't look like a fishing boat but I have some of those.
This is the longest I can go with my roof setup and the 5er
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By Pogo
Looks like an excellent choice of boat plans to start with if you ask me. Not quite so perfectly elementary as pirogue, but the very next thing to it, and not really that much more difficult at all. I don't think you'd have any trouble building or paddling -- or fishing -- out of that design. I also think it'll be a lively and speedy performer you'll be thrilled with. I like, give thumbs up! :D
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By gerald
I don't see anything wrong with it. It does look like it will be a lively little boat. Interesting design. I'd like to see the bottom of it up close. I don't know the building specs, but with a boat like that you should go ahead and apply fiberglass over the whole thing rather than just tape the seams. Bring it to the Roundup next year!
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By Light Keeper's Kid
That's a nice looking build,you might want to talk to Ron a bunch of us are ordering TV plans on line. It's the one he calls the "Brazos Queen" looks something like that but not as much rocker.

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By Pogo
I respectfully disagree. I'd bet my wad it's fairly docile, but fast. And that full glass inside would be structural overkill, whereas taping seams over fillets will be plenty strong (I have several veteran boats built just that way, and they're in fine shape after much abuse). Do agree with 'bring it to the Roundup next year', though. 8)

gerald wrote:I don't see anything wrong with it. It does look like it will be a lively little boat. Interesting design. I'd like to see the bottom of it up close. I don't know the building specs, but with a boat like that you should go ahead and apply fiberglass over the whole thing rather than just tape the seams. Bring it to the Roundup next year!
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By DarrellS
If you paddle the same type of water as BowGarGuide, Strider and myself you do need to fiberglass the entire boat. The Pirogue I built is fiberglassed inside and out, but was cracked on a trip BowGarGuide and I took a few weeks ago. That is why I did not bring it to Inks Lake, Did'nt have time to repair it. If you are going to be banging off of rocks and such I would definately fiberglass the entire boat. A few pounds is a small price to pay for a substanially stronger boat.
By Iamdamoder
Thanx guys
What is fairly docile to one is Lively to another. I have no qualms about lively For this boat. I hope to show off the bottom some day.
Here are a couple build links with better pics.
http://homepage.mac.com/robertwagenvoor ... akayak.pdf


OK so 2nd choice is Jem Okwata A touch beamy but has a big cockpit in the plans. The Esk would have to be custom.
http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddetail ... Okwata1526

And yes I will bring at least a usable full scale model to builders bash next year.
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By Pogo
Building the hull to plan is critical, but everything else ought to be tailored to your own personal wants and needs; that's half the reason to be building your own boat. You can put any cockpit on any boat -- and ought to modify it unless you're totally happy with what's in the plans. If you want one-size-fits-all, that's what plastic boat stores are for, and less trouble. :)

And speaking of custom-tailoring your own boat, as Darrell rightly points out you can, and should, apply a fiberglass schedule that's appropriate to your own paddling location, not some designer's who may live in North Carolina or whatever. Gerald says fiberglass the inside and I disagreed; Gerald paddles the Brazos that Darrell mentions, I paddle coast with sand and mostly mud bottoms. I can get away with lighter boats, they can't. Now you get to decide what you need to handle.
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By DarrellS
Whether you decide to fiberglass the entire hull or not, remeber you built it and you can fix it if needed. And when that pretty boat gets it's first big scratch just smile and say that did'nt take long. :D
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By gerald
Actually--if I were to recommend that you fully fiberglass one side only and tape the other it would be the INSIDE. You gain most of your strength from the inside layer of fiberglass. If you tape only the joints you gain nothing but having replaced the old style wood frame with a more modern type of epoxy/fiberglass "frame." If you do not apply fiberglass to the entire inside/outside of the boat you need to go to a thicker skin in order to make up the strength. This is a difference between 4mm and 6mm.
I have built many boats using only tape on the seams--many years ago. However, 3 panel boats are about the only boats I can see effectively using the taped seam method. Once you get into 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 panel boats it is simply easier, stronger, and much more effective to use a full layer of fiberglass over the entire boat rather than try to work with all that tape over the multitude of seams.
To reiterate--I recommend that you do a full fiberglass layer on the inside of the boat. And, since you've done that on the inside, you might as well do the outside as well. It's better, cost effective, and your boat will last longer (with a little care).

Pogo can disagree with me on anything he wants--and there is much we disagree on--but that doesn't make him right or me wrong. Since there are differences of opinion on everything I'm going to vote for what I think...
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By gerald
I prefer the Okwata over the Selway-Fisher boat. Looks like it would be a much simpler build and give good performance. I prefer the lines of the Okwata. Much of this is just a matter of personal preference. Either boat will float your bod...
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By Pogo
As long as I can say my boats weigh at least ten pounds less than most anyone else's, and none of them has ever suffered a failure in actual use, I'm happy. 8)
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By bowgarguide
I have to disagree with pogo and go with Gerald on this . I have seen personally three boats that had breaks in the hull, all three were paddled on in because the inside glass held while the outside was fractured. I say glass the inside for a couple more reasons ,if you to all the trouble to put down the tape fore the seams ,you dont have much area left to glass the whole thing,second you never know when you will decide to paddle somewhere there are rocks and logs.Look at Pogo on Inks lake a couple weeks ago now that is a rocky lake.
Just from my view point I would be penalizing myself if I tried to build light and skimped on the glass,it would make me baby my boats in the environment I paddle in.
I have a question for Pogo ,explain what you feel the advantages are from a light boat
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By Pogo
bowgarguide wrote:I have a question for Pogo ,explain what you feel the advantages are from a light boat

Easy: performance!

Check out a race like the Texas Water Safari sometime (TWS coming up in a coupe weeks); you might be appalled and astonished at how light some of those boats are built. Some are paper-thin! Why, the year before last, a six-man unlimited racer broke smooth in half, and was cobbled back together with duct tape and actually finished the race, then afterwards was put on the truck racks for the ride home in two pieces. Why do they build them so light? Performance! The less paddle effort you must invest in shoving around the boat itself, the more can go to forward propulsion. Or in other words, a lighter boat paddles more effortlessly. The heavier, the more sluggish a barge you have (note -- I'm not calling anyone's boat a barge, just trying to make my thoughts clear with words).

Lighter boats aren't as tough. Tougher boats are not as efficient to paddle. It's all about personal preferences and choices. Basically, I choose to paddle high performance boats for fishing because going far and fast is what makes a day on the water fun for me. Not that anyone should agree or disagree, I'm just keeping my end of the scale in view. That help?

PS: There's a lot of strategy to consider in a marathon, or any other kind of race, and what sort of layup to invest in is just one. The tougher boat carries increased insurance against losing time to repairing damage, but lighter boats go faster and make better time . . . barring damage. Choices, choices.
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By TexasZeke
Forgive me because my thoughts are probably all wrong on this. All things being equal two boats exactly the same other than weight. One glassed inside and out, other just outside glassed. Guessing here but the weight difference would be what 5lbs or so. Maybe I misunderstand the physics here, and that's the reason for this post, to try and understand.

Seems the lighter boat would be faster/easier to get up to speed, but once both reach speed, it would be easier for the heavier boat to maintain that speed. Wouldn't the forward motion of the mass help maintain the motion? Wouldn't the lighter boat, having less mass to propel it, glide to a stop quicker? I thought the most important things for speed/efficiency were length vs width plus actual shape of the hull. I've looked at some plans for sea kayaks that were about 22' long and around 20" wide with an est. hull weight around 75lbs. Maybe I have completely misunderstood things but it seems to me even with that weight it would be faster than a 16' boat that weighed 20/30lbs lighter

I look forward to being enlightened

oh, sorry for hijacking the post in the name of education
By Iamdamoder
OK now I have things to consider that I never considered.
Based on my paddling style "Run it up on that rock and try to get a cast in there". Glass inside and out is probably not overkill.

Leaning toward the Jem boat now that I have to add a few pounds to the ESK they are very close. The jem boat claims nearly 100 pounds more capacity. Don't know where I'd get a hundred more pounds of crap but seems like a good trade for only 1 1/2" wider.

As for the ultimate in HP boats I agree with Pogo. Just for fun I lifted a brand new six man Spencer off the horses a few weeks ago. Wow it felt about as heavy as my 12' plastic. And Puuurdy like 30 feet of black mirror. If anybody has a really big seal a meal I'll thy to get some pointers. :lol:

Pogo did you do that seat in the merlin?

Thank all of ya for the thoughts and ideas.
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By gerald
This is another area where pogo and I disagree. The biggest advantages of a lightweight boat are loading, unloading, and portages. The TWS has 13 dams to portage and at least another 13 to 20 portages otherwise. Once the boats are in the water there's not a whole lot of difference in performance between EQUAL but different weight boats. Race boats are not equal in design, performance, weight, construction, or any other aspect to a standard recreational boat--nor are the PADDLERS equal in any way. Only the top 10 marathon paddlers in Texas could realize any quantifiable benefit from a very light weight boat--and one hole would negate all that gain. And this opinion is from a marathon paddler who has made many of those portages.

Now, let's get back on the topic originally started by Iamdamoder. Start your own threads if you want to shoot off on some wild tangent.

TexasZeke: your thoughts are very much on target. I'm as guilty as anyone about sometimes hijacking a thread and in most cases it's fine, but sometimes if certain people want to belabor a fact they should start their own thread.
By Iamdamoder
I very much value all of the opinions expressed. I don't feel like we have been high jacked.

Truth is I can loose 5 pounds by switching to dry ice or perish the thought, leave a few Lone Stars for the next guy. If I get some carrot sticks and high dollar reels we will shed a few grams here and there.

So the remaining questions are.

Will the Jem boat be significantly harder to learn to roll?
Will one be faster than the other?

I won't be racing the thing but I do want to outrun most of my fishing buddies. Yes I promise to get some paddling lessons. Got a lot of miles already out of guts (read as ignorance) and you tube, hope I ain't to bad to be trained.

One more thought on weight, Just might lose 5 pounds of luv handle if I rub on that boat every eve after work.
Oooo I always wanted to do this :horse:

And a joke adapted from the racetrack. don't know if it applies?

He'd still be married if he rubbed on that woman half as much as rubbed on the wood boat. :lol:
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By Pogo
Glad to hear you say it, I was really curious where the 'wild tangent' was. Oh well, beats me. :?

I'd have to say the narrower boat will be the faster one. I'm sure to get in trouble for saying so, but that's certainly where I'd put my money.

The narrower boat will also be easier to roll, though the wider one would not be a deal breaker by any means; lots of whitewater boats are surprisingly beamy (~26, 27"). The main two things are to have a cockpit configuration where you can cannect to the boat, which is mostly a matter of being able to brace your thighs up under the deck, and keeping the rear deck low so you can lay back. Too large a cockpit can make the former difficult, but sometimes allows you to scoot forward to get your knees engaged while having the effect of "lowering" the rear deck by "scooting it aft" . . . if that makes any sense. Do you plan to acquire and use a spray skirt? It comes as a surprise to most to learn it isn't necessary, but you can imagine the advantages of it pretty easily, I think. :D

If you want to go fast and learn to roll, I'd sure go with the S-F.

As for weight, I only harp on it for the same reasons I harped on home built boats on TKF for years without a sign of interest from the congregation: to keep the subject alive in case somebody does happen to come along and desire it. 8)

PS: I own a 17-foot K-1 sprint kayak that weighs 10.2 lbs all up and ready to go. There are no portages in sprint events. Why so light then???
Last edited by Pogo on Sun May 24, 2009 6:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
By Iamdamoder
I had no Idea that anybody anywhere could roll a boat without a spray skirt. But yes NRS has at least 1 for a 40" cockpit. and I'll make sure I can get my knees into it.
I have a skirt for the 54 " cockpit of the plastic boat. With it I can get my hair wet and recover but at 180 she seems stuck. :roll:
Some combination of training and boat design would make a huge difference
For now we will work on the boat.

Goal is to catch a big bass, yell wooo hoo and do a cooling roll 8)
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By Pogo
Well, to catch you before you plunk any $ down here are a couple quick tips. First, nylon spray skirts are good for keeping spray out of the cockpit, but not much else. They're particularly notorious for imploding or otherwise coming off when rolling. You need a neoprene spraydeck for that, though a nylon tube for a "hybrid" spray skirt works fine.

Also, the smaller the cockpit, the better the sprayskirt'll work. Ultra-serious rolling fanatics use "ocean cockpits" that are like 17" x 21". I use a cockpit that's 17" x 27" so I can knock mud off my feet before bringing them aboard, and for general handiness, and it's considered a medium size. I'd recommend you figure on a Snapdragon sprayskirt as the best quality at the best price, find out what their large size spraydeck measures, and design your cockpit to fit. Probably be something like 18" x 32".

Dude, there's nothing like being able to snap off a victory roll after catching a great fish! :D :D
By barditch
:D Dude! You see me start a roll...it ain't intentional--it's a turtle job! I was in a 17' Old Town canoe (wooden, thank you very much) and the guy in front was a little on the "overweight and clumsy" side. We did a half-roll in the Boundary Waters Park...if we'd been 10 feet farther from shore, I'd have been Pike Food...Lord, that water was cold! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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By bowgarguide
Here is a post bye Hairy,the guy that built the prototype OKWATA, He really raves about this boat and he is a pretty experienced paddler.
Thanks Al,

Mate if the very short walk I took her for a few weeks ago (just to confirm seat position) is anything to go by, I think she will make a very good touring kayak.

I rarely go offshore anymore but am pretty confident she will make a capable boat in just about all conditions. Most of my open water stuff is now only in a large bay but pretty exposed in any wind. Wind chop is allways a potential problem here. Southwind and my expedition sea kayk handle it, no problem. What I was after with this one, was a boat about as skinny water capable as my Laker but also capable as a sometimes open water boat for day trips. I just love to sprint across the bay to Fraser Island, have lunch on the beach, than a nice easy paddle back over the coral, into the setting sun. I think it is about 11 miles each way.

Oh yeah, I really like the immense volume in the front hatch of this boat. For a 15 foot rec,touring kayak, it is the best I have seen.

I sat in her on the ground today before loading her onto my car. (Did I mention I'm going paddling tomorrow? :P ) With the seat set up the way it is, the boat fits me like a glove. Side braces are a neat fit and my knees tuck in beautifully under the side decks.

This will make for really comfortable and controlled bracing in bad weather. With a skirt or spray deck, I think this boat will lend her self very well to rolling but I don't plan on ever being upside down again if I can help it. :lol:

Do I sound excited? LOL, bet your life I am. Tides are all wrong for a paddle tomorrow where I want to go, but I don't care. It has been a real test of will not to take this boat out before she was finished. :D
By Iamdamoder
I had to take a fishing break. whooo son they are biten'.

I'll take any suggestions on other similar boats.

Goals are:

Performance touring boat that I can learn to roll. Fifteen feet or a little less with a bit more rocker to turn in the narrow rocky rivers I play in.
I want this boat to perform nothing like my plastic boats. A little tippy is fine she wont be a daily driver.
The okwata got me thinking about capacity. Tho I have never overnighted from the yak this may be a good idea for the boat that is sposta do things that I have never done before.
So da moder is 6' 200 pounds and perhaps a hundred pounds of gear for an overnighter.

penny for you're thoughts
and a little river rudder porn.

This guy probably thinks I am a weirdo but I see him around allot and I really wanted the pic.

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