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By Saltstalker
#2280498
Looking for inexpensive plastic or stainless roller pulleys .
I'd rather attach with a carbiner than have to drill. So with a larger hole on one end.
Thank you.
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By Ron Mc
#2280507
The shackle ends on the blocks imaoldmanyoungsalt linked could probably be grabbed using biners.

here's where I hooked my no-holes trolley (though I used ronstan 20mm orbit blocks, 3mm trolley line)
You could hook carabiners here - even use a bungee loop in front (or both ends) to give you the right tension on the trolley line.
A friend used just a pair of biners with a loop of cord for a simple trolley on our last kayak trip.

bow - to a foredeck bungee guide - moved the bungee from the outside guide to the inside and formed a short loop of 4mm cord with a sheet bend to clip the scotty clip
note everthing I used here is "soft" and won't scratch the boat
Image
stern - scotty clip to carry handle webbing - you could just put a biner here in place of all my hardware
(also will admit my hardware is slick, and those blocks have been used 9 years now)
Image

searching google, can't find too many options for inexpensive lash-mounted plastic blocks that would work with 3-4mm cord.
You could probably use a pair of the larger 3/8" Ronstan Shocks in place of pulleys.
here's a good price with free shipping - per one
https://www.northernmarineelectronics.c ... -rf8081blu
that's about half the cost of orbit blocks, and about the same as high-grade biners. Image could probably get by with the smaller Shocks using 3mm cord for your trolley line, sold in pairs
https://www.northernmarineelectronics.c ... 8080gry-2/ again, free shipping

here we go, found these plastic blocks, 28mm and 40mm sheaves, pin, sister-clip or becket, and except for the ball-bearing version, they're inexpensive compared to ronstan orbit blocks - couldn't find a place to check shipping - might want to call them:
https://nautos-usa.com/collections/all/plastic-block
Image

note even cheap metal blocks aren't that cheap - https://webriggingsupply.com/product/34 ... eye-block/

When we put a trolley on my buddy's boat last fall, we used a swivel/tilt orbit block at the stern, mounted with washers and bolts through the bungee guide, because there was no access to back holes, and the typical cheek block forward where it was easy access to back drilled holes:
viewtopic.php?p=2275661#p2275661
Also note the bungee segment was in the trolley line
Was proud of the way we used a Dutchware swivel biner to put a top line guide where we needed it.
I keep a small stash of Dutchware swivel biners because we're always finding new uses for them.

When you get it going, post some photos for us.
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By Ron Mc
#2289061
Ron Mc wrote:The shackle ends on the blocks imaoldmanyoungsalt linked could probably be grabbed using biners.

here's where I hooked my no-holes trolley (though I used ronstan 20mm orbit blocks, 3mm trolley line)
You could hook carabiners here - even use a bungee loop in front (or both ends) to give you the right tension on the trolley line.
A friend used just a pair of biners with a loop of cord for a simple trolley on our last kayak trip.

bow - to a foredeck bungee guide - moved the bungee from the outside guide to the inside and formed a short loop of 4mm cord with a sheet bend to clip the scotty clip
note everthing I used here is "soft" and won't scratch the boat
Image
stern - scotty clip to carry handle webbing - you could just put a biner here in place of all my hardware
(also will admit my hardware is slick, and those blocks have been used 9 years now)
Image

Saw a much smarter way for attaching a no-holes trolley on a very nice T160i on the for-sale forum page.
After a major duh, just took a longer piece of bungee, to attach the stern end of the trolley to the rudder gudgeon,
get it out of the lift handle webbing, and get the drift sock farther back for lower windcock.
With the fixed trolley cord length, it required longer bungee loops on both ends,
it's also easy to get the correct tension set finishing on the bow-end bungee.
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Last edited by Ron Mc on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By TexasJim
#2289082
I buy from an outfit called Sailcare. They have 1/4" Ball Bearing blocks for $7.00, or Micro Blocks for $4.50(not ball bearing). Good suppler,small stainless parts, cordage, etc. sailcare.com IslandJim
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By Ron Mc
#2289093
Similar to you Jim, I have go-to vendors - like I always check BoltDepot first for piecemeal fasteners, I always check SailRite first for marine hardware and lines - they have great shipping options, including $3 US post, which makes a $2.50 order for 10-ft of bungee easy. I also like that they stock New England Ropes, which from bungee to double-braided spider lines are worth extra effort to get.
Most marine dealers have min $10 shipping UPS ground, and minimum orders around $100 for free shipping, though if you have $100 order and they have best prices on your odds and ends, that can be good, too.

When I ordered a 16' 3/8" (NE Ropes) dock line at cord-ft price from Vela Sails in Rockwall and received with this hand splice and seize, I didn't care about the shipping charge.
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By impulse
#2289290
I see most everyone is using paracord, and I'm sure that's fine. But I suggest looking into Kevlar kite line in some much stronger, yet thinner sizes.

Not an endorsement of this particular vendor, though I will say I have generally had great luck ordering stuff from AliExpress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32795701113.html

Or, you can go to Amazon and get very fast delivery (at slightly higher prices) on Kevlar or UHMWPE (braid) in heavy sizes to 1000# - 2000# test. Again, not an endorsement of these vendors. Just some info about better tech that's out there.

https://www.amazon.com/emma-kites-Braid ... th=1&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/emma-kites-Suspe ... th=1&psc=1

Handy for all kinds of uses where you need something stronger than paracord. I use them on a trolling reel for magnet fishing.
By SWFinatic
#2289292
impulse wrote:I see most everyone is using paracord, and I'm sure that's fine. But I suggest looking into Kevlar kite line in some much stronger, yet thinner sizes.

Not an endorsement of this particular vendor, though I will say I have generally had great luck ordering stuff from AliExpress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32795701113.html

Or, you can go to Amazon and get very fast delivery (at slightly higher prices) on Kevlar or UHMWPE (braid) in heavy sizes to 1000# - 2000# test. Again, not an endorsement of these vendors. Just some info about better tech that's out there.

https://www.amazon.com/emma-kites-Braid ... th=1&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/emma-kites-Suspe ... th=1&psc=1

Handy for all kinds of uses where you need something stronger than paracord. I use them on a trolling reel for magnet fishing.


I use paracord since it does have some stretch to it. When I'm anchored up or staked off to my anchor trolley and the wind is blowing there's a lot of pull on the anchor trolley pulley. I think the stretch in the paracord helps prevent that pulley from pulling out of the kayak. Also it's rated at 500 lbs. if it breaks I don't need to be on the water.
By impulse
#2289297
SWFinatic wrote:I use paracord since it does have some stretch to it. When I'm anchored up or staked off to my anchor trolley and the wind is blowing there's a lot of pull on the anchor trolley pulley. I think the stretch in the paracord helps prevent that pulley from pulling out of the kayak. Also it's rated at 500 lbs. if it breaks I don't need to be on the water.


To each, his own. And your experience should dictate which way you go...

You're right for the anchor trolley, but I'm also seeing a photo with some paracord raising and lowering a guy's rudder, where you don't want stretch, and I think he'd be better off with the extra slick UHMWPE.

My objective was to point out that there are other materials coming onto the market. A 2mm braid (UHMWPE) line is several multiples stronger than a typical 550# paracord while being quite a bit smaller in diameter and a lot slicker. It's not ideal for all applications. But it does have its place, along with Kevlar and its inherent strength and cut resistance.
By SWFinatic
#2289303
impulse wrote:
SWFinatic wrote:I use paracord since it does have some stretch to it. When I'm anchored up or staked off to my anchor trolley and the wind is blowing there's a lot of pull on the anchor trolley pulley. I think the stretch in the paracord helps prevent that pulley from pulling out of the kayak. Also it's rated at 500 lbs. if it breaks I don't need to be on the water.


To each, his own. And your experience should dictate which way you go...

You're right for the anchor trolley, but I'm also seeing a photo with some paracord raising and lowering a guy's rudder, where you don't want stretch, and I think he'd be better off with the extra slick UHMWPE.

My objective was to point out that there are other materials coming onto the market. A 2mm braid (UHMWPE) line is several multiples stronger than a typical 550# paracord while being quite a bit smaller in diameter and a lot slicker. It's not ideal for all applications. But it does have its place, along with Kevlar and its inherent strength and cut resistance.


Impulse you definitely took my response the wrong way lol. Not saying I'm right just sharing what has been working for me.
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By Ron Mc
#2289317
Then see I'm not using paracord on my trolleys, but New England ropes Spyderline dyneema, aka spectra, marine double braid (freaking sail lines).
I guess you're generically using "paracord" for double braid, but they're not the same - made for different uses.
1/8" spyderline is 2-1/4-times stronger than larger 3/16" (550-lb) paracord, and a perfect match for 20mm orbit blocks.
It's rigid with No measurable stretch.
I use short bungee loops to adjust tension on the trolleys.
Image I can't abide the giant trolley rings - these Sea Dog 1-1/2" rings are tough to find.
The knots are anchor bends - http://www.theensign.org/uspscompass/co ... orbend.htm
though you can also use Round Turn with Two Half-Hitches
(everyone should know how to tie a Bowline, and you can tie lines together or make serious cord loops with Sheet Bend)
Image Even 0.9mm lashing dyneema has a breaking strength of 135 lbs - tighten your lashing tag ends with pliers, put a touch of super glue on it, and it becomes a higher-strength composite
Image
5/32" spyderline is 3-1/4-times stronger than just slightly larger 3/16" 550 paracord - 1800 lbs.

https://www.sailrite.com/Cordage/Marine ... popularity

One place I use 550 paracord are rod leash ends, because it ties nicely to quick-release buckles using round turn with two half hitches (x2 ends), and adjusts with double cordlocks.
Imageparacord also twists without kinks and slides easily around your rod and reel foot
Image
Also have paracord on one of my drift socks - stretch isn't a problem there, and it wraps very neatly - this is really what paracord is good for - it's totally limp and doesn't knot on itself - a quality you don't really need in a stiff trolley line on pulley blocks.
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Limp bow lines (double braid dock line) are good, because they coil easily and lay flat. Make sure you find 1/4" or 3/8" - nothing larger.
Each of my boats has a bow line that's the length of the hull - never know when it will come in handy - definitely comes in handy launching your boat from an elevated boat dock (and climbing back out there).
Image
Other than a few pieces of paracord, all my lines are quality marine double braids - I've worn through some cheap double braid, and 12-strand, both trolley line and rudder/skeg deployment lines, that I bought from kayak supply, and the 2nd rudder deployment line to need replacing came from a camping supply.

This rudder deployment line is also Spyderline (350-lb). The camping-store double braid I wore out there before would change length between winter and summer ambient temperature, but the spyderline doesn't. (it's a property of lower-crosslinked polymers that they shrink in the heat and relax when they're cold - same property as multi-viscosity motor oil - but the spyderline doesn't do this, so the plastic it's made from is more rigid on a molecular level.) The outer braid on spyderline is also tougher, probably more UV-resistant, and doesn't show noticeable wear (as fabric floss on wear points).
My rudder cable is 500-lb spectra speargun line, after replacing two braided stainless steel cables - the longer-lived of those two was teflon (FEP) coated, and lasted 7 years.
The spectra rudder cable is a bit of a booger to install - can't push it through cable sleeves, have to pull it through, twisted (very neatly) to single-strand leader wire.
Image
ps - found one other piece of 550 paracord - the chinstrap on my Akubra - also a good place for it.
ImageAhoy.
Last edited by Ron Mc on Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
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By Ron Mc
#2289404
Even bungee is not made the same.
Found myself replacing every bungee line on my Tarpon every few years, buying from kayak vendors.
But the bungees on my Kestrel have been there almost as many years, under constant load, and still have excellent elasticity, haven't stretched and relaxed, and no sign of wear or rot on their outer braid. I'm expecting the NE Ropes bungee I bought from sailrite to make a similar long-life showing - they definitely seem to load quickly without relaxing over time.

There are other good rope brands, such as Samson, famous for their high-strength double braid performance sail lines, as well as industrial line and rope - they also offer good double braid dock lines in 1/4" and 5/16" (3/8" is easy to find).
Both nylon and (multifilament) polypropylene (the yellow line above) can make good limp dock/bow lines.
What I've found with cheap double braids over the years is they don't stand up to UV, and begin releasing powder from the outer braid. Here's a cheap Academy dock line that began shedding blue powder after just a few years - it would turn your hands blue and leave blue dust on the deck.
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Last edited by Ron Mc on Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
By impulse
#2289419
SWFinatic wrote:Impulse you definitely took my response the wrong way lol. Not saying I'm right just sharing what has been working for me.


My apologies... My objective was to cast some light on options people may not have been aware of.

I'm still experimenting with different materials that may not be new to the market, but were definitely new to me at some time in my history. (We used 2-4" UHMWPE lines to hold our X0,000 ton tankers in place in the Gulf of Thailand, which is where I started looking into different sizes) Until then, I had no idea that UHMWPE (AKA braid or Dyneema) was available in sizes beyond the typical fishing lines, at least not to the general public.

I learned about bigger diameter Kevlar lines when I got involved in Kite surfing.

In some previous threads, we've also discussed dual wall, adhesive lined heat shrink tube, which is very handy when dealing with steel cables like rudder pedal cables. I've been using it for my shark leaders for years now.

I hadn't seen those options in any searches through websites typically pointed at kayakers, canoe-ers and wade fishers.

To be honest, I've had very poor luck with "paracord", probably because it's so ubiquitous and some of the brands are much better than others. I've found some that bunched up like a small snake that swallowed something too big. Of course, I'm sure some brands are better than others, and any input into good sources is appreciated...

Hope there's no hard feelings. I think we're all just trying to be helpful. But sometimes the drudgery of typing makes it difficult to have the same dialog that flows so naturally face to face. I can say in 15 seconds what it takes me half an hour to type up. My bad...

BTW, I really appreciate the details here, especially those of Ron Mc. I've learned a ton from the info he and others have posted- without having to spend the time, money and aggravation to do all the material trials myself.
By SWFinatic
#2289420
Impulse no worries bud. Thanks for your reply. I hear what you're saying. Lots of good info on here for sure.
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By Ron Mc
#2289424
it's a bit of trial and error, in that, when you don't like the way a line holds up for you, or the way a rigging component functions, look for something better.
Sailors have been punishing lines for a long time, always slicking up their rigging, and materials are changing.
Cordage technology has moved way past the basic nylon double braids we used to buy for backpacking applications at REI - and Holibar - many of those came from sailing and climbing.
It's like fishing lines - the new braids change the capacity of smaller reels compared to mono - which right after WWII improved fishing over older braided silk and cuttyhunk (braided linen).

I hated when West Marine left town (5 stores closed in San Antonio), which eliminated window shopping for rigging, but it forced me to spend more time searching for internet marine vendors with good shipping options.

Paracord is really Mil-spec parachute cordage. It's great for applications where those properties are useful - 550-lb breaking strength in 4mm diameter, totally limp, totally kink-free, and slick like silk. It's not bungee, but intended to stretch and absorb shock. The style of the braid also affects how the line stretches.
High-strength double braid is something else and has always implied low stretch - it began with nylon and improved with newer polymers.
The Samson website is a good place to review different line types by application and MOC - this is all marine, no "paracord"
https://www.samsonrope.com/recreational-marine
When you see the MOC is aramid (Samson Tech 12, GPX double-braid), that's kevlar.

and here's NE Ropes Spyderline (dyneema core) - a perfect match for microblocks.
https://www.neropes.com/products/dinghy ... yder-line/
They also make 12-stand dyneema (and aramid), at 1/8" and 5000-lb breaking strength, I'd say you've finally reached overkill for a kayak trolley, but also consider the design of the double-braid is optimized for strength, wear, and bending around a tighter sheave.

It's kind of cool when you consider all halyards have been braided steel wire, and now they have plastics to replace it.
Though I still love the sound of ringing halyards in a marina, and would hate for it to go silent.
Image

ps - if you want to keep the outer casing and inner core of your double braids and bungees from feathering and sliding when you cut and work them, first wrap the spot you're going to cut tightly with polyester/acrylic tape - https://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Metalized-F ... 2999580585
the tape is less than 0.002 inch thick, has 20-lb breaking strength, and is heat-resistant.
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cut it on a wooden block with the sharpest knife you own
Image
and lightly touch the cut ends with a microtorch.
I can cut 3/16" bungee this way and drive it through a 3/16" drilled hole in a scotty clip.
Image(these bungee ends have been burned a 2nd time to flare them after they were knotted)

I also use the tape to seize the tag ends on my knots, can cut the wrap loose later and re-tie the knot if I need to.
Image
Last edited by Ron Mc on Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
By yangjianhunt
#2289431
So much good knowledge here!!

I've been using para-cord 550 as anchor trolley line and been wanting to find a better replacement cord.
The main drawback of para-cord is its low abrasion resistance. I have had multiple wears and breaks on the outer casing of line where I had to repair it with wrapping duct tape which hinders pulling through the pulley. I believe the wear and tear of the outer casing of paracord is due to the use of zigzag cleat on my kayak.

I've been using the stainless steel anchor pulley: 8$ for 2. Not as refined as Ron's setup but it worked adequately for me.
https://www.amazon.com/YYST-Stainless-P ... ods&sr=1-3
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By Ron Mc
#2289440
you're welcome

Part of the reason I started with the 10-year-now Ronstan orbit blocks was to keep everything plastic, saving hull scratches, but also thinking it would increase the trolley line life. First use of 4mm black 12-strand cord from a kayak supply didn't fare well, and sent me back to the drawing board. Similar cord that came with the skeg I installed on my daughter's Redfish 10 lasted about the same. Been much happier with the performance of quality lines - it may not look cost effective compared to buying a trolley kit to spend $20 on 35' of line, but if you're going to paddle your boat 10 years and beyond, it pays for itself.
I'm about to put another trolley on a Redfish after seeing a good way to attach the rear, and will post it later.
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By Ron Mc
#2289633
My first twine-seized rope end, on a Samson ropes dock line.
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Really simple if you have the waxed twine and sailmaking needle (needle comes with the good twine).
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By Ron Mc
#2290161
Another trolley from inception to (just about) completion.
Wanting to slick up the Redfish 10, to have two light boats to mothership at Arroyo City this fall.
The easy way to mount an orbit block to the stern of this boat is a Scotty clip on the skeg gudgeon.
With easy bow hatch access, will use a check block on the bow.
Image
Was looking at Josh's slick trolley on his Search - he used pad eyes for fairleads on the bottom line, and put the ring on the top line - seen it in action, and it works great.
In the typical Hobie style, his uses 2 rings connected by a short length of bungee.
Image
Have the boat sideways on a storage rack, and began working a piece of line to figure out the compound curves on this wider boat, and locating my hardware with poster tape.
Image
Decided if I copy Josh's ring-on-top trolley, every piece of hardware on the gunwhale would interfere with the trolley ring.
Sized it so I can keep trolley lines out of the cockpit, and also out of the sternwell bungee rigging, with two top-line fairleads and one line guide on the bottom.
Here's what I'm ending up with - photo rotated to make a little more sense (and haven't yet mounted the bow cheek block - the bow ends of the trolley line are hanging on vise grips)
Image The top line will work on either side of the side carry handle, and is easy to grab in the carry handle bowl
Image
here's one of two top-line fairleads and bottom-line guide - those little Ronstan fairleads use 3mm fasteners, and today's mail has a 5.5mm nut driver to back the nyloks
The trolley line ring and knots glide beneath the lower line guide as long as the bungee tension is moderate
Image
While I was playing with the camera, stuck it inside the hull to show pressure seal washer and nylok backing the no. 10 screw attaching the line guide. All my holes are drilled just under-sized so the machine screws will tap and seal threads in the PE hull, then tightened on the backing nuts. I also squeezed a touch of marine sealant in the holes before running in the screws, and Dap was oozing from the pressure seal.
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And my stern orbit block lashed to a shock - the 5x dyneema lashing strength should be 650 lbs, but more than the bungee or scotty clip can deliver.
The scotty clip has two 3/16"holes drilled in the webbing slot to accept the bungee ends. On another boat, I lashed the block directly to the scotty clip slot, but chose to put the bungee here, so lashed the block to a shock for the bungee loop. And of course you could use a metal shackle block here instead (but nothing here cuts anything else or marks the boat).
Easy to adjust trolley tension by the bungee knot.
Image
After I get my fairleads backed, all that's left is tie off the other trolley line anchor bend, stretch the bow cheek block and verify the bottom guide slick operation, then mount the cheek block.
When finished, will get a photo of the bow cheek block.
The other knot to the ring can be a bowline, another anchor bend, or even a small clip - the ring slides easily in the anchor bend, and wear is never an issue.
Image
Last edited by Ron Mc on Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:40 am, edited 5 times in total.
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By Ron Mc
#2290193
thanks Josh,
it went really quick after getting the nutdriver for backing the fairleads. Toughest thing was deciding the final position of the front fairlead, and I had to start the backing nuts with them seated in the nut driver, because couldn't get two fingers in there beside the cockpit molding - one finger reaches pretty far, and worked for the backing washers, with a touch of Dap on my finger.
Tough decision to finally drill those holes, but it zipped together after that.
Image
I'm going to add a few more rigging details, front rod holder, stringer cleat.
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By Ron Mc
#2290274
Smoke test on the trolley with the drift sock I rigged for this boat a long time ago.
The yellow line is the working line - the parachute end - clipped to the trolley ring.
The red line is the drift sock deployment line for collapsing the parachute, through the ring and clipped to the side handle webbing.
Image
It glides beneath the lower line guide
Image
so does the deployment line - I'm going to be adding a small Z-cleat on the top line (as far as I can reach left from the back hatch) to pin the trolley
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all the way to the stern (and back)
Image
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By Kalait
#2290278
Ron Mc, what are the clips you have on your red and yellow lines. You have the setup I have planned for my yak.

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