Building leaders

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Building leaders

Post by kayak angler »

I've been making my own leaders using 10lb test as the butt section then tapering to 8lb then 6lb using surgeons knots. My flies turn over fine when I use 8,10,12 flies. Larger flies are more difficult. Would using a larger butt section help, say 20 or 30 lb.?

Secondly, I've been thinking about using loop to loop connections. I hate cutting my fly line to change leaders out. I was thinking of tying in a 30 lb. section of mono to the flyline with an Albright then looping the end of that and tying my leader to the loop on the heavier mono. Will that work or will it screw up the cast?

I use a 5 wt. for lake and river fishing.
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Dave Speer
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Lefty's formula

Post by Dave Speer »

I'm going to point you to Lefty Kreh's leader formula, because I tried a bunch over the course of a few years and it's the best I've come to.

The basic formula for 10-20 pound tippet is this:
5' 50#
1' 40#
1' 30#
1' 20#
2' tippet, from 10-20 pounds.

I use Berkely Big Game for this, and the 5 spools can be had for about $30 which is a lot cheaper than a leader kit. I put some 15# and 10# on some old, empty tippet spools and then I leave the 5 spools at home in a cool, dark location. The mono should last for years this way. I put a loop on the 20# and attach a tippet via another loop. This way I don't cut into the main leader every time I change flies out.

On the subject of your tippet size, I usually use either 10 or 15 pound test and those will turn over even large flies nicely.

When you need to make adjustments to the above formula, (such as you want a tippet smaller than 10 pounds) you need to have something smaller than 20# to attach tippet to. You can just size down the whole formula. I make 3 types of leaders, and I use three colors of Big Game to keep track of which is which.

The one above is for general saltwater and bass fishing, but if I need to go smaller, for panfish or stock trout or whatever, I'll go to this formula:

5' 30#
1' 20#
1' 15#
1' 10#
2' 6# (or 3X tippet material)

I'm going to give one more example to illustrate changing the formula. I have a 2wt that I like to use a shorter leader on, and I like to be able to go down to 5x tippet (approx 4 pounds). It's hard to jump from 10# to 4# and still have the leader work right, so I start smaller and work down.

2wt formula:
4' 20#
1' 15#
.5' 10#
.5' 6#
2' 4#

As you can see in all examples I used 2 feet of tippet and the first section is 50% of the total length of the leader. If you want to subtract length, start by subtracting from the tippet end. This leaves you with the butt section of the leader being heavier, which will help turn your fly over better.

If you want to ADD length, like let's say you want to go to a 14 foot leader for skittish bonefish or something, you add it to the 2nd butt section (the first butt section is still 50%). Example:

7' 50#
3' 40#
1' 30#
1' 20#
2' 10#

Hope this helps.
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Post by GoinCoastal »

LHD - What knots are you using to make the leader? And do you connect it to the flyline via a loop or knot?
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Post by M-D »

As Dave pointed out, the general rule of thumb is that you want the heaviest portion of the leader to be 50% of the total length. There are any number of formulae available for leader construction, and Dave has listed some good ones. One more which I'll offer, also from Lefty Kreh, for turning over heavy flies is as follows:

4' 50#
1' 40#
6" 30#
6" 20#
1½'-2' of tippet

This formula is useful for 8 wt. and up.

I'm a sworn devotee of furled leaders, but have made leaders when I didn't have what I wanted/needed in a furled-style. When tying leaders, I always use a perfection loop on both ends, then do the same for one end of the tippet, using a handshake for the tippet/leader connection.

There are several ways to get a loop in the end of your fly line. You can whip a loop into it. You can use one of the braided connectors. You can use a heavy piece of mono, tied in a perfection loop, and inserted into the fly line and use a CA adhesive to keep it there, ala Dave Whitlock. This is easy to do, but does require some specialised equipment. I've even seen where somebody makes a kit that will align everything for you, making it easier. The Whitlock kit sold by Umpqua doesn't have this feature, but it does work, and it works well.

Part of the fun is trying new ways, discovering new things. :D

M-D
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Post by GoinCoastal »

I use the perfection loop for the end of my leader and the start of my tippet. Are you using loops for each section of the leader? Or are using another knot there like an Albright?
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Post by M-D »

I use Albright knots most of the time for tying the sections together, just because I'm lazy and other knots take more time. :) The Albright does cause the leader to take a funny shape, not allowing it to lie in a straight line, but it doesn't seem to matter to the fish. If I really cared about such things, I'd use double Uni-knots. Blood knots in such heavy line are a pain.

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Post by kayak angler »

Thanks guys! LHD, that is the best expanation of a leader formula I've seen. I think I will just whip a loop in the end of my flyline, then build my leaders with a loop and do loop to loops (huh?) for the leader to flyline connection.
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knots

Post by Dave Speer »

Connections...

for fly-line to leader connection I use handshake loops. Any old loop knot will work for the leader butt, non-slip loop (my favorite), perfection, double surgeon's loop. for the tippet-to-leader connection I again use handshake loops. So from the fly line to the end of the tippet there are four loops: fly line, leader butt, leader end, tippet. Of course another loop if you use a loop to connect tippet to fly.

As far as the connections between sections, I use a blood knot. The double-uni works good too. It's just that I am used to a blood knot and I know how much length I use up constructing them. I only do two turns on the blood knot. That may reduce the strength but I have to tell you it's always been stronger than the tippet for me... any failures have occured in the tippet or fly. By only making two turns on each side of the blood knot, I'm able to seat the knot correctly, even in the 50#-40# connection.

By using loop-to-loop to connect the tippet, I'm able to get a lot of use out of the rest of the leader, kind of like using furled leaders. On really bad days I might have to replace my leader more than once but I'm sure I have leaders I've used for 20 days or so. When you make your own it doesn't hurt to throw out a leader that has a wind knot in it :D Make up a few at a time, keep them in a leader wallet or just a simple ziplock bag with your gear. Keep the leader-making spools at home so they don't break down with heat and UV. When I go down to the coast for a week, I just bring about 10 leaders and I always have way more than I need.
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Post by Dave Speer »

kayak angler,

just realized a couple of points I missed. For your 5 weight you'll want to use my second example, starting with 30# and working down, or use the example M-D posted. You'll be able to work with smaller tippets if you want, and the 50# is technically a touch heavy for a 5 weight line (though you probably won't notice it.)

Also to clarify, I don't actually have 15 spools of Big Game for making different colored leaders. Since I need to be able to tell quickly what leader is what, I alternate only the butt color. So my 50#, 30#, and 20# spools are all different colors. The 40, 15, 10, 6 make no difference. I know the clear is my heavy formula, the green my light and the neon green my ultra-light leader. I ignore coloration in the other sections.
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Post by fredtoo »

I use loop-to-loop all the time for line to leader and no problems. If your line is strung by Angler's Edge, this is what they will provide you unless you ask for something different.

Remember, in the heat of battle (aka catching fish) the best recovery is the quickest !
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Post by kayak angler »

I didn't think of doing a loop for the tippet connection. That's a great idea. I redid my connections last night using 40# tied to the flyline with a nail knot then threw in a surgeon's loop on the end. It's only 4-5" long. Built 5 leaders using 20#, 10#, 8#, 6# tippet. Did some casting practice this morning, all the people driving by on their way to work gave me the "are you nuts" look, leaders turn over much more smoothly.
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Mulching

Post by fredtoo »

K.A. I have only used knotless tapered leaders, but I will accept your word that the knotted leaders will work better (although I don't know the physics of why...)

there is probably one larger issue regarding knotted leaders though, and that is when you are fishing in the grass. Each one of those knots is very capable of picking up it's own clump of grass and you can spend a lot of time picking and flicking instead of fishing.

On the other hand, maybe that "advance defense" of knots helps keep the grass off the fly...which is deadly.

Maybe others can share their experience with this.

(On my last guided trip to Port O', a big ol Redfish was totally ignoring my offering...and the guide said "I think you have grass on your fly". Looking down at my pants I said, "Well, I don't see any ?")
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Post by kayak angler »

Fredtoo, the only reason I use knotted leaders is because I have spools of mono laying around and want to use it up. And the household accountant has had about enough of my fishing expenditures for a while. (See honey, I'm saving money by tying my own leaders, ummm, you know that 8 wt. St. Croix I've been looking at?) Most of my fishing is done where there is almost no vegetation, rocky Hill Country resevoirs, so grass on my leader is not a problem. Your grass on your fly comment had me ROTFLMAO!!!!!
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Leader calc

Post by Puck »

I don't remember where I got it, but I do have it. It is a spreadsheet that performs the leader calculations for you based off of application. It was too big to post here, so let me know if you want a copy.
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Post by Guest »

Butt section, Biminy twist (has loops on both ends, then tippet, the bimini twist gives you more stretch and is a great shock absorber, it is not as hard to tie as people make it, just takes practice. Long haird dave has the answer vis a vis Lefy Kreh, you cant go wrong with that formula.
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Post by fishin' »

Would a surgeons knot be as good as a blood knot? Lots easier to tie.
:?: :?: Still stronger than the tippet.

fishin'
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Post by Barry »

fishin' wrote:Would a surgeons knot be as good as a blood knot? Lots easier to tie.
:?: :?: Still stronger than the tippet.

fishin'

Fred
You can use the double surgeons knot to join the leader sections together, but the blood knot is closer to a 100% knot. The blood knot will also allow you tie a leader that's straight. The surgeons knot causes those pesky little offsets.
IMO the best/easiest way to go is with a furled leader.
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furling v. tying

Post by Dave Speer »

Barry wrote:IMO the best/easiest way to go is with a furled leader.


Hey old man I guarantee I can tie 'em faster than you can furl 'em. :twisted:

Actually I have messed with furled leaders and I have some issues with them, namely:

1) I don't think they cooperate in the wind, and
2) On more than one occasion everyone in the pond has been catching fish except for the guy with the furled leader (streamers). Change the leader out and he starts catching fish. Weird. Probably does NOT apply to saltwater fish, which act like respectable predators and not sunfish!

I think if most of my fishing time was on the coast I might like the furled for the "less knots" aspect.
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Post by M-D »

The double surgeon's-knot is a pain to tie with heavy mono, and makes one nasty-looking knot. I'd hate to tie a Bimini in 50 lb. mono, too; not that it would be difficult, but there'd be an awful lot of mono present. :shock:

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Re: furling v. tying

Post by Barry »

Long-Haired Dave wrote:
Barry wrote:IMO the best/easiest way to go is with a furled leader.


Hey old man I guarantee I can tie 'em faster than you can furl 'em. :twisted:

Actually I have messed with furled leaders and I have some issues with them, namely:

1) I don't think they cooperate in the wind, and
2) On more than one occasion everyone in the pond has been catching fish except for the guy with the furled leader (streamers). Change the leader out and he starts catching fish. Weird. Probably does NOT apply to saltwater fish, which act like respectable predators and not sunfish!

I think if most of my fishing time was on the coast I might like the furled for the "less knots" aspect.

Hey Dave
I thought that were you but I wasn't sure. I have to disagree with you about furled leaders not cooperating in the wind. I've always thought that one of their best features was the way they performed in the wind. I can't explain why the fish in the pond wouldn't hit the fly that was on the end of a furled leader.
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leaders

Post by Barry's Dad »

Here is a little more on leaders and Lefty.
I tried to send a detailed message on the flexibility of leader materials.....but it wouldn't send do to screening of obscene materials by McAfee. (??????). I've appealed that, since it's only flyfishing stuff. I guess the automated systems pick up on words and combinations.

I'll summarize...as you may yet get the whole thing.

For Lefty's words, I refer you to check out page 47 of his book, PRESENTING THE FLY. I'll quote one sentence: "Common sense should tell you that if a supple fly line unrolls and arrives at the leader, a stiff butt-section is going to resist unrolling."....... But I urge you to read the whole section.

The simple testing / observing I've done, leads me to the conclusion that for most situations you want a leader butt-section just a little less flexible than the end of the flyline for good turnover. We can get that with EITHER stiff or flexible (soft) mono by simply changing diameter......ie., greater dia. for the soft material, and lower diameter for the stiff mono.

The thinner material does allow for a smaller leader / line connection. The bulk of that connection becomes of less concern as we go up from a 2 wt to a 15 wt. system, obviously.

The "standard" answer to the question as to relating butt-section dia. to fly line tip da. is, "3/4 of the diameter of the end of the fly line." THAT WOULD BE TRUE, HOWEVER, FOR ONLY ONE RANGE OF MATERIAL FLEXIBILITY.

From a functional standpoint, I think it would be best if we could relate the two....not in terms of diameter, but relative flexibilities (material-stiffness). Since this property is hard to measure, and isn't quantified when we buy leader material or fly lines, I guess we'll have to stick with the former system.

For most fishing in the salt, experience has taught me that for 8 wt to 11 wt systems, 50lb test soft mono works fine....for 7 - 8 wt systems, 40 lb is OK. I only go up to 60 lb soft mono for 12 to 15 wt systems.

In the field, Lefty has taught us that smooth leader turnover with these is better when one uses the same brand (same relative flexibility) of leader material for the tapered sections as well. I find the stiffness of the tippet is less important in our fishing, than other considerations....such as abrasion resistance. Here, many of us use fluorocarbon tippets loop-to-loop connected to the end of the taper.

REMEMBER....I'm not talking about specialized leaders for specific fishing circumstances. That's a whole new subject. THAT expertise can separate the great casters from the great CATCHERS.
About Knots from my Master Gordy Hill Big Pine Key Fl.
Lefty likes blood knots for the heavier mono and surgeons knots for mono below 20lb test. Tests show that the latter is MUCH stronger.....but, since the tippet is a lot lighter and the "weakest link" in the system, I prefer the smooth and less bulky blood knots for the tapered section. I end that section with a tightened down small Duncan loop. This pulls straight on. Its' theoretical disadvantage is that it might slip down...but in practice that never happens.
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Post by Dave Speer »

Hey Barry excuse me if I've missed this on the salty board or something but what are you using for furling these days? The Coats & Clark stuff? What about formulas? Do you use the GFF setup or have you modified the peg positions?

I've thought about keeping a couple on hand for when I'm picking up lots of junk on the knots. And/or trying them out for a little bit more time before passing final judgement on them.
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Re: leaders

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Barry's Dad wrote: About Knots from my Master Gordy Hill Big Pine Key Fl.
Lefty likes blood knots for the heavier mono and surgeons knots for mono below 20lb test. Tests show that the latter is MUCH stronger.....but, since the tippet is a lot lighter and the "weakest link" in the system, I prefer the smooth and less bulky blood knots for the tapered section. I end that section with a tightened down small Duncan loop. This pulls straight on. Its' theoretical disadvantage is that it might slip down...but in practice that never happens.

Here’s the breakdown (no pun intended) on some of the knots we use today. These are out of Bill Nash’s book “Flycasting Systems”. For those of you who aren’t familiar with Nash, He’s considered the leading authority on leader systems in the country.
My tests on knot/line strength came pretty close to the results he got.
Mine were done on the same type test equipment (Chatillon Model DPP-30) that the IGFA uses to establish their records. I based my tests on 10 pulls on each knot/line (both wet and dry) and then averaging them out.
Albright knot-approx. 85%
Arbor knot- approx. 100% if tied w/double line, 85% tied w/single line
Blood Knot- approx. 60% to 80% depending on material
Bimini twist- approx. 97%
Duncan loop knot- approx. 95% if seven or more turns are used when tying
Homer Rhodes loop knot- approx. 70%
Huffnagle knot- approx. 60%-70% at connection, but since it’s used on a double line 100
Kreh loop knot- approx. 100%
Perfection loop knot- approx. 95%
Palomar knot- approx. 100%
16/20 knot- approx. 95-100% mono, 80-85% Fluorocarbon
Surgeons knot- approx. 100% using 3 or more turns
Surgeons loop knot- approx. (on mono) 85% for the 2 turn and 95% for the 3 turn loop- deduct about 10% strength for Fluorocarbon
Trilene knot- approx. 100% mono, 85% Fluorocarbon
Uni loop knot- approx. 100% but may slip down tight under extreme pressure
Uni knot- approx. 97-100%
Braided loops on Mono/Dacron- 100% on the loop, depends on installation at the connection
Served loops on fly line- 100%
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Post by Barry »

Long-Haired Dave wrote:Hey Barry excuse me if I've missed this on the salty board or something but what are you using for furling these days? The Coats & Clark stuff? What about formulas? Do you use the GFF setup or have you modified the peg positions?

I've thought about keeping a couple on hand for when I'm picking up lots of junk on the knots. And/or trying them out for a little bit more time before passing final judgement on them.

Dave
Yes, I still use the C&C nylon along with a few different light test mono/fluorocarbons. I'm not big on the fluro's for the same reason I don't like the Uni thread. No stretch =broken tippets.
I built another board with a lot more positions so I could modify the leaders to my own tapers. It seems to have worked out well.
The other day when Al and I were on the river, he mentioned he was getting excessive water spitting from some furled leaders. I haven't found that to be true. The only leaders that I've ever used that held a lot of water were braided, and that's why I stopped using them.
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