TexasKayakFisherman.com est. 2000

Kayak fishing the Lone Star State...


By Ken S
#2298650
For you fly flippers, is there any reason I can't use a Crazy Alberto tying tippet to the line?
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By karstopo
#2298652
Tippet to line, which line? I do tippet to mid section with blood knot, mid section to leader butt with blood knot. Butt to fly line, perfection loop to welded loop.
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By Ron Mc
#2298656
an Alberto knot is so much like an Allbright knot, it would work for tying backing to fly line.

But leader needs a pretty thick diameter butt, 30-lb mono (even 40-lb on big lines and flies), in order to turn over, and a nail knot or needle-nail knot works best in saltwater for fly line to leader.
If you can tie an Alberto knot, the nail knot is not much more effort.

Of course loop-to-loop is always good for fly line to leader, for quick change of leaders, and if you don't have a welded loop on your fly line, you can use a nail or needle-nail knot to tie a short piece of leader butt ) and put a perfection loop in that, also in the end of your leader, and loop-to-loop.
Image Image
Gray's loop using doubled-over leader butt is another good way to put a loop in the end of your fly line.
Image Image https://www.flylineshop.com/fly-fishing-knots.html

If you want to use an Alberto knot to tie tippet to leader butt, and have a two-segment leader, that should work.

For toothy fish leaders, jacks and mackerel, I use a two-segment leader, 3' butt and 3' wire, with an Allbright knot to tie wire to leader butt.
With titanium wire, you can use karstopo's blood knot to tie wire to leader, and even tie the wire directly to your fly.
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If you're fishing freshwater only, you can use a needle zap splice to put a tapered leader or leader butt into fly line.
Here's a zap splice attaching leader to sinking line (can't use this in the salt, drying saltwater breaks the superglue bond)
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You can use a quilting needle, in the side of the fly line and out the tip, then pull a tapered leader through with the needle.
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You can build your own longer segmented tapered leaders using different mono diameters:
https://guiderecommended.com/how-to-mak ... ng-leader/
blood knot works great for tying leader segments together, but you can also use the simpler surgeon's knot
By Ken S
#2298769
The reason I asked is trying to find a quick way to attach while on a kayak. It takes me about 30 sec to do an Alberto knot, whereas with any other the kayak would be pushed to shore. Something like this would mostly be used on lake Travis.
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By Ron Mc
#2298773
so you have your fly line with 3' leader butt (30-lb mono) rigged and ready to go, and attach 3' tippet to leader butt with Alberto knot - works.

Allbright and Alberto are for tying together lines with a big diameter difference.

Or if you're asking about tying tippet to a tapered leader using Alberto knot, that works, too, but surgeon's knot is so much easier if you're tying two lines with a very small diameter difference.
Make an overlapping loop and pull each of the two ends through sequentially twice, then tighten all four and trim.
Much less effort than an Alberto knot
Imagethis knot works very well
Image

If you're wondering about swapping leaders on the water, loop-to-loop is the only intelligent way.
You have a loop on your fly line ready to go.
ImageIf your new leader doesn't have a loop, tie a perfection loop or easy surgeon's loop in the leader butt.
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By Ron Mc
#2298804
that will get you going Ken.
There should never be a reason to tie on a leader on the water.
Tying on one or more tippet sections to an existing leader - yes.
By Ken S
#2298829
Tomorrow I'm going to take my 2 bamboo rods to see if they are just wall hangers. Not going to use them either way.
Bought a cheepie off Craigslist and will use that till I find out if I enjoy enough to get a good one.
By Ken S
#2299027
Well, the man at living waters looked them over good and said they look brand new, and not to be afraid to use
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By Ron Mc
#2299035
You should show us photos of your cane rods, especially markings on them -
- they can be a lot of fun to fish, and easy and intuitive to learn, because of the way they slow down the casting process.
Fishing cane and glass rods improves your cast on graphite, because you better understand rod loading.

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By karstopo
#2299086
I like loop to loop connections and haven’t had any trouble with the factory welded loops on fly lines. My leader butt material is usually just a bit smaller in diameter than the fly line at the welded loop. I do perfection loops for the leader butt and that gets joined with the welded loop. A Perfection loop Is something that I tie very quickly and have it memorized, but it’s rare for me to change out leaders when I fish. Loops are great as nothing is getting cut, especially the fly line. I don’t like cutting the fly line if I can help it. Leaders are sort of infinite, but fly lines are always finite. Leader material is almost negligible on the cost to replace, but having to replace a damaged fly line very often from too much cutting every time one makes a leader change is much more costly.

There’s always a weak link in a line system. I want something from the tippet to hook to fail first. So if I get snagged, I want the hook to bend open or the tippet to break and nothing above the tippet to break. 15-20# tippets will tend to bend open most freshwater fly hooks. Lighter tippets can bend open lighter wire hooks. I’ll usually fish bent open hooks after bending them back into shape, but they are forever weakened. I’ve had some hooks go through the process of bending open a few times before they snap when trying to bend back into shape.

Fish can bend open hooks or break tippet. Fish get into structure like submerged logs and that puts the tippet or hook at risk. Fish like LMB often love that structure so getting hung up in it comes with the territory. In my experience, not all hooks are created equal. Generally, forged carbon steel hooks from top makers like gamakatsu, Owner, Mustad, etc. are very resistant to bending open.

Probably, much of the time, none of it is all that technical. There’s potential for technical issues, but it’s situational. Are the fish leader shy? Is there something about the presentation that requires ultra fine tippet? There’s a lot of things about the flies, tippet, leader and line that the fisherman can adjust to fit situations and fish.
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By Ron Mc
#2299087
kars, as I mentioned above, loop-to-loop is the only intelligent way to swap leaders.
Of course, many fly lines don't come with welded loops, so it's good to have options. I know you hang on FFR - you will find people there who intentionally cut their welded loops from new fly lines in preference to their "stealthier" nail knots - I'm not even one of those.

I tie perfection loops on almost everything, except where I want a longer loop with the highest possible strength.
Surgeon's loop is a little bit bigger knot, easier for people to learn to tie reliably, and reported to be stronger.

Perfection loops, you can adjust the size during the knot to make them as tiny as you want, and they always lay perfectly straight in the line.
There's an extended moment of truth tying perfection loops where it may get away from you before you get it tight.
While perfection loops finish perfectly straight, the surgeon's loop finishes bent at 90-degrees until the mono takes a working set.

I just happened to be tying one last night, putting a small shock tippet on a new braided line on a spinning reel (was taking a macro of my improved Allbright, but had the camera there) -
- here's a surgeon's loop in 10-lb copolymer, intentionally made long enough to drop through a cigar cork on my salt UL - about an inch overall length.
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while I had this set up, here's the smaller perfection loop in 15-lb fluoro shock tippet on a different line and reel,
still tied intentionally long enough (1/2") to loop on a bite-trace or lure paper-clip
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already had this photo of a perfection loop in 12-lb fluoro next to a surgeon's loop in 15-lb braid
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Surgeon's loop is also handy, e.g., if you have a complex dropper rig with split shot and needle-threaded plastic egg, and you want to save it to fish again next time - cut it off long enough to add a surgeon's loop above the split shot and wrap it in a leader wallet - matching loop in the new tag end of your leader, and loop-to-loop when you take it back out.
Again here, I'm talking about tying an intentionally long loop in 4x leader, so you can spread it with your fingers and drop the long rig through to complete your loop-to-loop
ImageThe little trout is on the loose egg hook that was threaded next to the Otter's milking egg, and the threaded plastic egg has slid up the leader to the split shot.
Bottom center of the photo is the size 22 midge dropper, which earlier in the day landed a 27" 8-lb rainbow.

Here's the Allbright knot, 6-lb braid to 10-lb copolymer (and set with a drop of CA)
(it's always amazing how messy your clean knots look at this level)
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By Ken S
#2299119
How strong is the knotless super glue leader connection? Be using only in fresh water.
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By Ron Mc
#2299121
Ken S wrote:How strong is the knotless super glue leader connection? Be using only in fresh water.

well you see I caught river stripers over 30" with it in 450 cfs (big flow for the Guadalupe) - it was strong enough to defeat the anti-reverse pawl on the JW Young Revolution disc drag and force me to palm a free-spinning reel deep in the backing.

I discovered the saltwater thing about the zap splice the hard way also in a strong current, up from the surf at the mouth of Cedar Bayou, when a schoolie spec took my whole leader - it was ok enough, I switched spools to the slime line with a double-nail-knotted leader butt, though that line wouldn't get down quite as fast in the tide current ripping through the bayou.
Ken S wrote:What forum is the FFR?

fiberglass fly rodders - https://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum/
where we discuss vintage and new glass rods - also cane, graphite, spinning and bait rods - vintage reels - it's a good place for fishing gear, and especially for fly fishers.
c. '56 Harnell 645R 7-1/2' glass 7/8-wt - it's kind of a parabolic-taper rocketship, and weighs about the same as a Sage inshore 7-wt.
I originally bought it for $30 or so on ebay, sold it to a friend for that, and 8 years later he gave it back to me as a Christmas gift, when I was looking for another for inshore.
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- here I'm fishing the same line as the stripers, but have the needle-nail knot on leader butt, and loop-to-loop to 4' tapered 12-lb leader.
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By fishnstu
#2299192
Musta missed it but I couldn't find any (besides the above) reference to Karstopo's blood knot. I searched the googlea and here to no avail. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.

stu
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By Ron Mc
#2299204
fishnstu wrote:Musta missed it but I couldn't find any (besides the above) reference to Karstopo's blood knot. I searched the googlea and here to no avail. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.

stu


this? Surgeon's knot for connecting tippet sections?
Image Make an overlapping loop and pull each of the two ends through sequentially twice, then tighten all four and trim.

With this knot and Uni knot for tying on flies, you pretty much have all on-the-water knots covered.
I hope this thing is on
Last edited by Ron Mc on Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By karstopo
#2299206
https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/blood-knot

I like to build leaders using the blood knot linked above. So if I'm tying a leader for redfish stalking up shallow using an 8 weight, I'm using 40# leader butt, something stiff like a hard nylon monofilament or fluorocarbon leader material. Maybe 6' of that with a perfection loop to the welded loop of fly line. Then 2' of 30# material blood knotted to the 40# butt, then 2'-3' of 20# to the 30# also blood knotted. You can stop there or put in another section of 15#.

The measurements in my experience aren't vital. You could start with 30# butt, especially if it's a 6 or 7 weight fly line. If the sections are too dissimilar in diameter, blood knots are harder to get right.

This all for floating fly line. If I'm at the edge of the depth of effective floating fly fishing, I generally try to get away with lengthening my leader to about 14' and use a little tungsten weighted pattern. Ends up almost being an intermediate tip type of fly line.

Blood knots to me just look prettier than the double surgeon's knot and I like tying blood knots. But like a lot of fishing, preferences and tastes vary and there's often multiple viable solutions to a particular issue. Try some different things and see what sticks for you. I like how people come up with their own ways to making it work. Forums have been a great resource for seeing the various approaches to anything fishing.
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By JW FunGuy
#2299212
I prefer the blood knot as well. As far as dissimilar diameters go I have found on the heavier line doing fewer wraps makes a huge difference, so dropping from 5 to 4 wraps, also on smaller lines increasing say from 5 to 7. The knots look more uniform and I have not found any sacrifice in strength.
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By Ron Mc
#2299432
Blood knots make total sense building segmented leaders at home.
But do you guys actually tie blood knots standing (or sitting) in the river?
I would think they would end up with really long tags, and tying them would shorten your leader in a hurry, just tying a couple of tippet sections.
Tying blood knots also has a moment of truth, where if you're not rolling both sides at the same time, tightening them can pinch and stretch your line (none of that with surgeon's knot).
Never found the simple surgeon's knot to give up any strength whatsoever, from Alaska to the Gulf coast.
Image
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By karstopo
#2299451
I do occasionally need to tie a blood knot on the water. I carry a few spools of leader material along with me. The leader might have gotten caught up in shell or the tippet gets too short could be a reason to tie one on the water. Or I’ll tie on a few feet of lighter material to the existing tippet to fish a little deeper. For whatever reason, it’s not a knot that’s been burdensome to tie at home or out on the water. I use a knife to cut the tag ends or maybe some side cutters. Before cutting, the tag ends are usually 1/2-3/4 inch. After cutting, I like them to be as small as possible. I might even apply some UV cure along to smooth it over.

The shape, size and little angle induced in the leader with the surgeon knot lacks some basic appeal for me. I did start off with those surgeon knots, but looked into alternatives and the blood knot is the one I have settled on.
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By Ron Mc
#2299473
no offense, but I've never had one that came out anything but perfectly straight, in fact a perfect cross with the tag ends out each side.
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