TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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txspeck
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by txspeck »

If TPW would designate certain areas on our bays for kayak fishing only then I would support some type of stamp. If they want more funding call Washington, I hear they are very good at printing money! :mrgreen:
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by ford.rhodes »

So they couldn't take a chunk from the millions they give college kids to party it up during Spring Break? Or cut some of the funding for universities that aren't even putting it toward students or the campus?

Before anyone gets on my case, I am a student and I have never been allowed to use any grants or loans. No reason, they just don't let me. I know multiple people who spend thousands going to tropical resorts and Europe who receive grants from the state.

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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by ford.rhodes »

And I'll add that I paid taxes for my yak to the state. No more of this double down nonsense. Plenty of places to stop useless spending instead.

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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Jimbo_47 »

The main thing is all it would amount to is a tax.
Most kayak owners own more than one kayak. I've had as many as four and now down to two.
If you had to register more than one kayak that could become expensive in a hurry. It would also be a PITA when it came to selling and buying between private owners.
I know it's all about the money to be made by the state, and the more popular kayaks become the more the legislators are salivating over it.
Now if they came up with you had to buy a stamp to kayak fish, that would be more practical, but that could be something coming down the pike.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Ghostrider9920 »

More taxes to float around on a piece of plastic???

Ahhh Hail No!!!
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by impulse »

Long dead thread, but it has some legs so I figured I'd comment. My biggest concern isn't paying to use my kayaks. It's getting the paperwork (title, etc) to be able to register them. I wouldn't blink an eye if they required me to register myself as a paddle boat (kayak and canoe) user, with a reasonable fee and a paddler's license. Maybe even offer an optional safety class and vessel inspection.

In fact, I'd be 100% in favor of it if it also allowed me to use a trolling motor on my yaks. Right now, I can't install any power on them because they're not registered and I didn't get titles when I bought them (2nd hand- with bill of sale, but no titles). Previous owners had long ago lost their MCO's, since some of my 'yaks passed through a lot of hands and none of them were ever powered up.

As it stands, I wouldn't be averse to paying a reasonable fee to paddle, since I am using the resource and there are enforcement and potential rescue expenses involved. But I wouldn't go out of my way to advocate such a fee unless there was some additional benefit, like allowing me to power up my unregisterable kayaks. Perhaps limited to electric power, but without getting a title.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Ron Mc »

What makes more sense than state paddlecraft registration is having MMSI registration (with or without a handheld VHF/GPS/DSC), which is a lifetime hull registration and links the Coast Guard to a database with all your contact information - no reason TPWD can't access the same database.
If TPWD chooses to register paddlecraft, it's just for the tax income.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by impulse »

I wonder how MMSI registration would work mechanically in these days of ubiquitous smartphones.

I don't understand the resistance to paying a reasonable fee for a discretionary activity that requires public funding for enforcement and safety. To me, that only seems fair. Before kayak fishing exploded, I imagine the minuscule number of license checks and rescues could be absorbed without denting anyone's budget. But now...

We may just be floating around on a piece of plastic, but I really want to know that a rescue boat or even a helicopter is going to be available to rescue me if I need rescuing. That costs money. It can come out of the general fund, but that means I'm being subsidized by folks that don't choose that activity. That's kind of like welfare... (Of course, that's tongue in cheek, and I do understand the resistance to paying yet another tax on top of all the others we pay)

My main concern is grandfathering in the thousands and thousands of kayaks that no longer have MCO's and never did get titled because we never needed a title in the past. Of course, I may be overthinking it, and it may be as simple as paying $10 or $20 for a 2020 sticker to slap on each of my kayaks.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Ron Mc »

I promise you there are a lot more powerboat Pan pan pan calls for dead motors and grounded boats than kayak rescues - they're just not news.

First thing you need for MMSI registration is a cell phone - so they have a place to call you if you have an alert floating across the marine band and they can't reach you on VHF.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by impulse »

Ron Mc wrote:I promise you there are a lot more powerboat Pan pan pan calls for dead motors and grounded boats than kayak rescues - they're just not news.
That's true, but this weekend, my brother ran his putt putt and I ran my kayak. He put 30 gallons in the putt-putt and I put nothing in the 'yak. So he paid about $11 in state fuel tax.

Do that once a week, and he's paying almost $600 a year to Texas in fuel tax. That's a pretty good start on contributing toward a rescue fund. That's in addition to the registration he pays every year.

Me? I'm freeloading. Not a dime paid out, except for the Wheaties I had for breakfast. And of the 2 of us, I was more likely to need the rescue once the wind turned later in the morning, whitecapping the way home. Of course, that's posted all in fun...

Strangely, it turns out he can get some (maybe all?) of his $600 back. So maybe this is a good discussion to have.

https://kfoxtv.com/news/kfox14-investig ... esel-taxes

http://americanboating.org/fueltax.asp#Texas
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Ron Mc »

I don't see the state volunteering rescue effort, but the USCG - I've seen their small patrol boats on ICW.
Might be different on lakes.
But is the state even asking to register kayaks?
If you know anything about how the state treasury works, no matter the purpose of taxes collected, the governor can spend it how he chooses - TPWD knows this Way too well, and affects the politics in everything they do.
Most of your license fees go to roads, because most of your road taxes go to schools.
FWIW, GRTU has an annual donation to TPWD to buy river survey equipment, boats, shock gear, boots, etc. - no potholes were repaired. While the GRTU lease membership is filled and closed until next fall, you can make a donation to earmark to TPWD gear fund.

DPS runs a gunship on Amistad. Saw this thing on a trailer heading south on I-37 last time I was heading north.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by TexasJim »

Ron: Texas Highway Patrol has SIX of those, which cost about $665,000.00 each! I saw two at Cove Harbor ramp, once. They were "patrolllng the Intracoastal Waterway"! From what? I think the one with the heaviest armament stays in the Rio Grande, mostly. Not all have the machine guns mounted. Your tax dollars at waste! TexasJim
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by impulse »

Ron Mc wrote:I don't see the state volunteering rescue effort, but the USCG - I've seen their small patrol boats on ICW.
Might be different on lakes.
But is the state even asking to register kayaks?
If you know anything about how the state treasury works, no matter the purpose of taxes collected, the governor can spend it how he chooses - TPWD knows this Way too well, and affects the politics in everything they do.
Most of your license fees go to roads, because most of your road taxes go to schools.

What do your hunting & fishing license fees fund?
100% of your hunting and fishing license fees go to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department for on-the-ground conservation efforts that help make Texas one of the best places in the country to hunt and fish. Fish stocking, wildlife management, habitat restoration, land conservation, and Texas Game Wardens are just some of the initiatives funded in part by your license fees. Thank you for your support of outdoor recreation and conservation.

Please tell me they're not lying to us...

https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/licenses/online_sales/
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Ron Mc »

I'm sure I was inaccurate, even exaggerating - extrapolating, hyperbole - with "most" - but the governor can pad from the general budget however he chooses, and all taxes collected go into the general budget.

Every portion of the TPWD website statement can be bent just enough - if you can find one of those game wardens, he'd probably disagree with its accuracy - privately, though certainly not publicly. Inside TPWD it's probably very close to the truth, but the money has to get to TPWD first.

Could count on one hand the number of times I've seen Texas MSEO on the water, and even then, more times I've seen county sheriffs rather than game wardens. Game Wardens are spread pretty thin with all their responsibilities. If you think about it, county sheriffs are probably first on the water when drowning victims need to be found.
(Registering swimmers may not be a separate argument.)

I looked it up - 7 states require paddleboat registration - Alaska, Illinois, Ohio, Oklahoma, Iowa, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania. I doubt if any have a helicopter on stand by for kayak rescue.
Interesting discussion here about the pros and cons of registration, with the cons far outweighing the pros, though also the agenda of the organization:
https://www.americanwhitewater.org/cont ... gistration
They draw the interesting parallel with bicycles.
Cities like SA that build greenways for bicycles and baby carriages justify their budget with improved public health initiative.

I know in Alaska, rescue of downed private airplanes is fielded by USAF Special Ops Command - it's part of their training. A fishing buddy is the retired Commander AFSOC - he flew a rescue tour in VN, and four in AK. They get incredible blows in Alaska coming off the Bering Sea, and he fielded as many as a dozen private plane crashes in a single day.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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impulse wrote:Long dead thread, but it has some legs so I figured I'd comment. My biggest concern isn't paying to use my kayaks. It's getting the paperwork (title, etc) to be able to register them. I wouldn't blink an eye if they required me to register myself as a paddle boat (kayak and canoe) user, with a reasonable fee and a paddler's license. Maybe even offer an optional safety class and vessel inspection.

In fact, I'd be 100% in favor of it if it also allowed me to use a trolling motor on my yaks. Right now, I can't install any power on them because they're not registered and I didn't get titles when I bought them (2nd hand- with bill of sale, but no titles). Previous owners had long ago lost their MCO's, since some of my 'yaks passed through a lot of hands and none of them were ever powered up.
It's pretty easy to get a replacement MSO. Back in 2013 or 2014 I was able to get a replacement MSO for my 2003 Wildy The Ride. I was the original owner, but I doubt that had any effect. I also got he MSO for a 2007 Perception Search 13 around the same time even though I was the fourth or fifth owner. I was able to get a replacement MSO for a 2005ish Heritage Redfish 10 , even after Heritage merged with Legacy Paddlesports and then was sold by Legacy to Johnson Outdoors (it's now owned by Hemisphere Design Works). So, it can be done. Even then I read about many people adding trolling motors to their kayaks without the MSO. You'll need to fill out TPWD Form 143 and at the very least take a picture of the serial number or even bring the kayak to your local TPWD office. From there it's about $65 to get your numbers and registration which is good for two years. From there you'll pay about $32.

You can find information for safety classes from ACA, ACK, REI, and other kayak outfits. USCG can conduct free vessel checks if you call them to arrange for one, and you can download the checklist here: Download PDF.
impulse wrote:I don't understand the resistance to paying a reasonable fee for a discretionary activity that requires public funding for enforcement and safety. To me, that only seems fair. Before kayak fishing exploded, I imagine the minuscule number of license checks and rescues could be absorbed without denting anyone's budget. But now...
Same argument can be made for bicyclist and those electric scooters. There's no mandatory licensing, registration, safety classes, or inspections. Plus, tax payer money is paying for dedicated bike lanes on public roads. There are far more cyclist accidents and deaths in Texas than kayakers, especially in ages 24 and under, and yet no mandatory statewide safety classes. Only thing I don't know is the number of bicyclist vs paddlers and the percentage of accidents/deaths for those two groups.
Ron Mc wrote:If you know anything about how the state treasury works, no matter the purpose of taxes collected, the governor can spend it how he chooses - TPWD knows this Way too well, and affects the politics in everything they do.
Most of your license fees go to roads, because most of your road taxes go to schools.
Hopefully, Prop 5 from this past ballot measure/election closed this loophole which has been exploited by our government since, from what I've been told, Ann Richards was governor.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Jayhuntfish81 »

Like many others, I love fishing and got into kayak fishing as a cheaper alternative to being a boat owner while being able to access parts of the lakes, ponds and rivers that I couldn't access from the banks. When people ask me "why don't you just buy a boat?" my answer has always been that I don't have to worry about registering a kayak, therefore I don't have to worry about that added cost.

I am all for the conservation of our hunting and fishing areas but I really don't want to be taxed anymore than I already am. I only own two kayaks at the moment but I do have plans to own more. What concerns me is, will I have to register all of my kayaks? I see some of the members here own and use more than five....what is going to be the cost of that?

I really don't have a solution, I'm just voicing my opinion on the subject. I'll keep an eye on this thread as I'm curious what other people think of this subject.

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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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Jayhuntfish81 wrote:Like many others, I love fishing and got into kayak fishing as a cheaper alternative to being a boat owner while being able to access parts of the lakes, ponds and rivers that I couldn't access from the banks. When people ask me "why don't you just buy a boat?" my answer has always been that I don't have to worry about registering a kayak, therefore I don't have to worry about that added cost.

I am all for the conservation of our hunting and fishing areas but I really don't want to be taxed anymore than I already am. I only own two kayaks at the moment but I do have plans to own more. What concerns me is, will I have to register all of my kayaks? I see some of the members here own and use more than five....what is going to be the cost of that?

I really don't have a solution, I'm just voicing my opinion on the subject. I'll keep an eye on this thread as I'm curious what other people think of this subject.

Jay
This thread was started over 11 years ago. Even though there have been many posts on here through the decade plus TPWD has no plans on requiring registration of kayaks (unless they have a motor or sail) at this moment.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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Neumie wrote:This thread was started over 11 years ago. Even though there have been many posts on here through the decade plus TPWD has no plans on requiring registration of kayaks (unless they have a motor or sail) at this moment.
Am I reading wrong? It appears that kayaks are exempt unless they are motorized. Seems like a sail kayak would still be exempt... Definitely true if it's less than 14' long.

Vessels Exempted from Registration— All non-motorized canoes, kayaks, punts, rowboats, or rubber rafts (regardless of length), or other vessels under 14 feet in length when paddled, poled, oared, or windblown; USCG documented commercial vessels used in coastal shipping; and vessels exceeding 115 feet in length.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/faq/fishboat/boa ... nd_titles/

It may be a picky point, but I'd hate to get a $200-500 ticket for powering my 16' Tarpon with one of those 42" diameter wind sails.

On an aside, I don't recall most of the 16-18' Hobies and Prindles I see at the beach having TX numbers.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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impulse wrote:Am I reading wrong? It appears that kayaks are exempt unless they are motorized. Seems like a sail kayak would still be exempt... Definitely true if it's less than 14' long.

Vessels Exempted from Registration— All non-motorized canoes, kayaks, punts, rowboats, or rubber rafts (regardless of length), or other vessels under 14 feet in length when paddled, poled, oared, or windblown; USCG documented commercial vessels used in coastal shipping; and vessels exceeding 115 feet in length.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/faq/fishboat/boa ... nd_titles/

It may be a picky point, but I'd hate to get a $200-500 ticket for powering my 16' Tarpon with one of those 42" diameter wind sails.

On an aside, I don't recall most of the 16-18' Hobies and Prindles I see at the beach having TX numbers.
I would think the kayak would need to be registered if it is equipped with sailing equipment; ie mast, dagger board, etc. The Hobie Mirage Adventure Islands need to be registered. I was working at JerryB's kayaks when they were released and there was confusion whether or not they needed to be registered and according to TPWD they do. If you have a kayak 14 feet or longer and it is equipped to sail it has to be registered. I don't think what you pictured would count.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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Neumie wrote:I would think the kayak would need to be registered if it is equipped with sailing equipment; ie mast, dagger board, etc. The Hobie Mirage Adventure Islands need to be registered. I was working at JerryB's kayaks when they were released and there was confusion whether or not they needed to be registered and according to TPWD they do. If you have a kayak 14 feet or longer and it is equipped to sail it has to be registered. I don't think what you pictured would count.

I'm not disagreeing with you, simply because I don't know. But it's interesting that the 2 Adventure Islands for sale recently in the classifieds have no TX numbers in the photos.

I've watched just enough episodes of Lone Star Law to be nervous... And I was once run off the water by a GW because my 17' canoe didn't have registration numbers. Turns out, the GW was wrong- confirmed when I went in to the TPWD office the next Monday to get it registered and they told me I was good (canoes of any length) as long as it didn't have a motor. I wish the guy had given me a ticket because then I'd have had his name. As it was, I just had a ruined weekend and 10 hours of wasted driving.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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impulse wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you, simply because I don't know. But it's interesting that the 2 Adventure Islands for sale recently in the classifieds have no TX numbers in the photos.

I've watched just enough episodes of Lone Star Law to be nervous... And I was once run off the water by a GW because my 17' canoe didn't have registration numbers. Turns out, the GW was wrong- confirmed when I went in to the TPWD office the next Monday to get it registered and they told me I was good (canoes of any length) as long as it didn't have a motor. I wish the guy had given me a ticket because then I'd have had his name. As it was, I just had a ruined weekend and 10 hours of wasted driving.
I didn't think you were disagreeing with me. It sucks your weekend was ruined. I think the problem with the Adventure Island is it falls in a grey area.
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Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

Post by Taildragger321 »

Not a fan of paying to register my kayaks! It’s just a piece of plastic. Next, we’ll be registering inner tubes.

I’m close to retiring. Sold my power boat to get rid of boat maintenance costs, motor maintenance costs, trailer maintence costs, trailer licensing fees, & boat registration fees. Bought my kayaks so I could afford to haul in the bed of my truck and afford my love of being on the water. If you put a motor or trolling motor on it, yes, then license it.
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Re: RE: Re: TPWD weighs in on "Kayak Registration"

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Taildragger321 wrote:Not a fan of paying to register my kayaks! It’s just a piece of plastic. Next, we’ll be registering inner tubes.

I’m close to retiring. Sold my power boat to get rid of boat maintenance costs, motor maintenance costs, trailer maintence costs, trailer licensing fees, & boat registration fees. Bought my kayaks so I could afford to haul in the bed of my truck and afford my love of being on the water. If you put a motor or trolling motor on it, yes, then license it.
As someone who has one that's registered for having a TM, I have to ask:
Why does a TM qualify it for registration, other than as a "money grab"? I gain nothing from it. What am I paying for?

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imaoldmanyoungsalt wrote:As someone who has one that's registered for having a TM, I have to ask:
Why does a TM qualify it for registration, other than as a "money grab"? I gain nothing from it. What am I paying for?
If I bought a new kayak, I'd be happy to register it and get TX numbers even if I didn't run it with a TM.

2 years ago, a Hobie went missing off our back yard on the canal in Sea Isle. Nobody's sure if it was stolen or just blew away in a freak squall. I'm pretty sure we'd have gotten it back if it had TX numbers. If someone had just found it floating in West Bay, the TX numbers would have pointed them to us. If someone tried to register it again, the HIN and TX numbers would come up as stolen. Instead, it's gone. I suspect someone's paddling it around this fine weekend.

As it is, I'm not aware of any registry for kayak HIN's to keep track of chain of ownership. Makes it real hard to identify whether a 2nd hand kayak has been stolen or not. As a result, they occasionally find trucks full of stolen kayaks being moved around the state, because it's very difficult for buyers to determine whether they're stolen or not and theft rings know it.

So I don't advocate requiring TX numbers on non-powered kayaks, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they did anyway. We'd be $$$ ahead on decades of registrations if we had gotten that Hobie back.

The biggest issues I can see are the super cheap kayaks sold to weekenders (but that's solvable), and the mess that would ensue for everyone who owns an existing 2nd hand kayak from when the paperwork to get a TX number wasn't required. Which is why none of my kayaks have TX numbers... I got great deals on them, 2nd hand. (With bills of sale and a photo of the DL's of each seller, just in case) I don't want to do the diligence to get the paperwork to get a TX number. I'd gladly fork over the money, however.

And that doesn't even go into Texas and USCG tracking kayak usage to determine how many resources they should dedicate to making it easier to kayak. There's a lot of us now, and it would be great to have more waterside parking areas, even where they don't have room for a boat ramp. Revenue from kayak registrations would help, along with a count of just how many of us there are. And that comes from money spent on TX numbers.
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impulse wrote:
imaoldmanyoungsalt wrote:As someone who has one that's registered for having a TM, I have to ask:
Why does a TM qualify it for registration, other than as a "money grab"? I gain nothing from it. What am I paying for?
If I bought a new kayak, I'd be happy to register it and get TX numbers even if I didn't run it with a TM.

2 years ago, a Hobie went missing off our back yard on the canal in Sea Isle. Nobody's sure if it was stolen or just blew away in a freak squall. I'm pretty sure we'd have gotten it back if it had TX numbers. If someone had just found it floating in West Bay, the TX numbers would have pointed them to us. If someone tried to register it again, the HIN and TX numbers would come up as stolen. Instead, it's gone. I suspect someone's paddling it around this fine weekend.

As it is, I'm not aware of any registry for kayak HIN's to keep track of chain of ownership. Makes it real hard to identify whether a 2nd hand kayak has been stolen or not. As a result, they occasionally find trucks full of stolen kayaks being moved around the state, because it's very difficult for buyers to determine whether they're stolen or not and theft rings know it.

So I don't advocate requiring TX numbers on non-powered kayaks, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they did anyway. We'd be $$$ ahead on decades of registrations if we had gotten that Hobie back.

The biggest issues I can see are the super cheap kayaks sold to weekenders (but that's solvable), and the mess that would ensue for everyone who owns an existing 2nd hand kayak from when the paperwork to get a TX number wasn't required. Which is why none of my kayaks have TX numbers... I got great deals on them, 2nd hand. (With bills of sale and a photo of the DL's of each seller, just in case) I don't want to do the diligence to get the paperwork to get a TX number. I'd gladly fork over the money, however.

And that doesn't even go into Texas and USCG tracking kayak usage to determine how many resources they should dedicate to making it easier to kayak. There's a lot of us now, and it would be great to have more waterside parking areas, even where they don't have room for a boat ramp. Revenue from kayak registrations would help, along with a count of just how many of us there are. And that comes from money spent on TX numbers.
I understand your points but I would first want to see the actual plan of action for kayak specific amenities before considering another tax/fee for it.
As far as using it as a tracking tool, that should be for anyone interested in paying for such. Not mandatory across the board. I have a lot of expensive things that the government does not need to force their responsibility in protecting for me. And there are private ways to do that as well. I believe there was also a suggestion on here before from RonMc if memory serves me about registering with the USGC or something in the past. Maybe he can chime in on that. Putting your name, address, telephone, inside a hatch is good for a lost yak too.
I would rather spend my money providing my own protection for my equipment than be forced to pay another government agency to do it.
Another note to add is that if someone wants the protection of a registered kayak with a TX number for tracking purposes (such as your stolen Hobie) you can register any kayak (whether it has a TM or not). It doesn't have to be mandatory for all when it's already available as an option to all. One can't blame the system for failing to force them to be protected when it was already available to them by choice.

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