My guess is RonMc will have the answer and why, but have any of you had an issue with your leader weakening after catching a large fish? I caught a 33” red the other night (report to come) and landed it. After that, I had another red break off. I know it wasn’t a knot issue because I lost about 2” of leader as well. So I checked the leader for abrasion. No issue so I tied on another Vudu shad. Caught a few trout and then had another break off. Maybe it was because I was using only 20lb but it seemed strange. I checked the remaining line for abrasion, and no issue. Tied ANOTHER Vudu on, caught a nice trout and as I lifted it into the yak, the leader broke about 4” above the lure.
And I also had another big fish break off my H&H tandem shad, but I’ll give those details in my upcoming report.
Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
The problem with fluorocarbon is that if it gets close to the breaking strength it will deform, permanently. Nylon will stretch quite a bit and then spring back into shape, retaining its strength. Fluorocarbon stretches, deforms if the pressure is enough, then is permanently weakened.
https://www.stroft.de/proandcontra0512.html
But, yes. I’ve had fluorocarbon not respond well after a high stress encounter with a fish. I still use it because I like how it sinks more readily and I like how it can take UV light without breaking down. I’ve had nylon leader become useless in long duration, high UV light exposure. Nylon doesn’t handle being wet for long as well as fluorocarbon. Fluorocarbon has worked for me for years, it just has some limitations.
https://www.stroft.de/proandcontra0512.html
But, yes. I’ve had fluorocarbon not respond well after a high stress encounter with a fish. I still use it because I like how it sinks more readily and I like how it can take UV light without breaking down. I’ve had nylon leader become useless in long duration, high UV light exposure. Nylon doesn’t handle being wet for long as well as fluorocarbon. Fluorocarbon has worked for me for years, it just has some limitations.
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Dandydon
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Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
I agree with Karstopo about that fluorocarbon deformation problem, but the logician in me sees another possible solution.
Have you considered that your beloved VUDU SHAD are somehow weakening your fishing line?
Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
Have you considered that your beloved VUDU SHAD are somehow weakening your fishing line?
Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Don, the only way those Vudu shad are weakening my line is by hooking multiple game fish!
Karstopo, thanks for that info. I learned something valuable today. I lost three fish and Vudu shad. I’ll make it a point to change my leader more often and after a strenuous fight from here on out.
Karstopo, thanks for that info. I learned something valuable today. I lost three fish and Vudu shad. I’ll make it a point to change my leader more often and after a strenuous fight from here on out.
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Ron Mc
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Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
just got here (been working on my work plate to get it clean enough for Arroyo).
Sounds strange to me, and I'd still be looking at knots.
My leaders are tied on with improved Allbright, and I put a perfection loop in the business end.
I loop on paper clip, always a swivel micro-trace on spinning tackle, or loop directly to a rig such as a cigar cork.
If I'm rigging a tandem, I may use 30-lb leader for the tandem rig, and will especially loop-to-loop the tandem to my leader. I learned this the hard way on our first Arroyo trip - then I was using straight fluoro - no braid + leader. I tried tying fluoro direct to the tandem loop, and my smaller dia. single bend knot would cut through the thicker tandem loop by the 3rd fish.
20-lb is plenty of leader if you're using a properly set drag.
I never use more than 20-lb leader inshore, though I'll go as high as 15-lb on my UL for the abrasion room.
I use 40-lb Gold label for surf leaders (even then, my drag set is 5 lbs, which is bastante). Bull reds in the surf have spooled me a few times, and I've brought properly pinched 60-lb swivels that were straightened to dental picks.
I released 16 redfish on Feb 20 on my MM baitcaster, and that same leader fished May, Sept and Nov.
It's quite possible it also fished the Oct before for four days, that many slot redfish, and two big sow trout.
My leaders last more than a year if I let them - I always check them for abrasion, and that's when I replace them.
A loop connection is much stronger than a single-bend knot around anything. Wire and even other line has a way of cutting through that single bend.
This is the swivel end of a titanium-wire micro-trace looped on the leader. The loop is 1" long, so I can slide a cigar cork through it. The loop knot here is also a surgeon's loop (wasn't happy with perfection loop in 10-lb Seaguar Blue).
Titanium wire, btw, is the most ductile leader material you can use - it has huge shock tolerance. Stainless wire doesn't come close.
Next question has to be what are you using for leader? Seaguar Blue is good, Premier is better, Gold is hardest.
I get away fishing UL inshore by using proper drag set.
I set my drag with an accurate spring balance, 1/4 of the weakest link - line test, leader test, or rod max line rating.
The logic is shock loading - a reasonable shock-load multiplier is 4x - you can do that much when you set the hook, and the shock can still happen faster than the drag can react.
I've only broken one rod in my life, and that was more my fault than the redfish, though we both contributed. I was taking my lure out of the water at the boat when he ate it, and my set was a high-stick at the exact moment the red exploded, along with the rod.
I was surprised they gave me a warranty replacement on the rod.
Sounds strange to me, and I'd still be looking at knots.
My leaders are tied on with improved Allbright, and I put a perfection loop in the business end.
I loop on paper clip, always a swivel micro-trace on spinning tackle, or loop directly to a rig such as a cigar cork.
If I'm rigging a tandem, I may use 30-lb leader for the tandem rig, and will especially loop-to-loop the tandem to my leader. I learned this the hard way on our first Arroyo trip - then I was using straight fluoro - no braid + leader. I tried tying fluoro direct to the tandem loop, and my smaller dia. single bend knot would cut through the thicker tandem loop by the 3rd fish.
20-lb is plenty of leader if you're using a properly set drag.
I never use more than 20-lb leader inshore, though I'll go as high as 15-lb on my UL for the abrasion room.
I use 40-lb Gold label for surf leaders (even then, my drag set is 5 lbs, which is bastante). Bull reds in the surf have spooled me a few times, and I've brought properly pinched 60-lb swivels that were straightened to dental picks.
I released 16 redfish on Feb 20 on my MM baitcaster, and that same leader fished May, Sept and Nov.
It's quite possible it also fished the Oct before for four days, that many slot redfish, and two big sow trout.
My leaders last more than a year if I let them - I always check them for abrasion, and that's when I replace them.
A loop connection is much stronger than a single-bend knot around anything. Wire and even other line has a way of cutting through that single bend.
This is the swivel end of a titanium-wire micro-trace looped on the leader. The loop is 1" long, so I can slide a cigar cork through it. The loop knot here is also a surgeon's loop (wasn't happy with perfection loop in 10-lb Seaguar Blue).
Titanium wire, btw, is the most ductile leader material you can use - it has huge shock tolerance. Stainless wire doesn't come close.
Next question has to be what are you using for leader? Seaguar Blue is good, Premier is better, Gold is hardest.
I get away fishing UL inshore by using proper drag set.
I set my drag with an accurate spring balance, 1/4 of the weakest link - line test, leader test, or rod max line rating.
The logic is shock loading - a reasonable shock-load multiplier is 4x - you can do that much when you set the hook, and the shock can still happen faster than the drag can react.
I've only broken one rod in my life, and that was more my fault than the redfish, though we both contributed. I was taking my lure out of the water at the boat when he ate it, and my set was a high-stick at the exact moment the red exploded, along with the rod.
I was surprised they gave me a warranty replacement on the rod.
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
There’s always the possibility of a bad spool or way off spec material making into the market. I bought a spool of purportedly 20# fluorocarbon leader online once, memory says it was a Berkeley label (not Vanish). This stuff was as brittle as all get out. Set the hook on any reasonably sized slot redfish, guaranteed break and not necessarily at a knot. I had a new spool of 20# Umpqua hard nylon leader that I could break easily with a tug between my two unprotected hands. Fluorocarbon seems to vary quite a bit maker to maker and even within the product line up of a particular maker. There was some relatively inexpensive Portuguese fluorocarbon leader that I bought labeled hi Seas and triple fish. I kind of liked it. Their 15# material had a larger diameter than 15# Seaguar blue. My own observations was that the Portuguese material did better around sharp shell than the thinner Seaguar. I can’t seem to find those Portuguese spools at this time. Wonder if they didn’t migrate into my daughter’s possessions?
Seaguar is good for sure. I’ve got the red, blue, gold and the old Grand Max out in the garage. I’ve got Yozuri and Vanish fluorocarbon. Vanish fluorocarbon leader to me seems a little out of round or lumpy in a way. I use it for leader butts, but not typically for mid sections and especially not for tippet.
I used to often run with 25 or 30 pound leader on the baitcasting rig fishing around all the reef I was fishing, but kind of tend to go 15 or 20 pound material for the braid to terminal tackle/lure connection leaders these days on the baitcasting rig and 15 pound on fly leader tippets.
I just sort of said the heck with it. 15# fluorocarbon leader seems nice enough to work with on tying knots, making decent presentations and I ought to be able to land about anything out there where I fish on 15 pound material without issues. I don’t break off too many fish and when I do, it’s been operator error. Some of these more dainty fly hooks can bend or snap open before the leader will snap.
Getting the drag how you want it is something I suppose. Trout are such a pain with their delicate mouth membranes. I can’t say I’ve completely mastered the drag on baitcasting rigs fighting better trout. I tend to have a fairly tight drag for the hook set, but then back well off the tight setting for the fight.
I was out on the bay last Monday for a little afternoon session with the fish. At the time I was tossing a paddle tail out away from a reef a bit in 24-30” of water on a 1/16 jig head and hooked and almost immediately lost a good trout. Made another cast, hooked another trout. This fish tail walked and thrashed, gills flaired like it was on meth or something, for as long as I can every remember a trout acting like that, totally freak out fish. I’m trying to back off on the drag and maintain some pressure and I did get that 19” fish in the net, but then lost 3 or 4 after that. Had to be operator error. Pissed me off. Trout have sort of gotten in my head with baitcasting rigs. I do much better getting them to hand, like way, way better, with fly tackle. Most of the time, I don’t even put trout, even better trout, on the reel with fly gear. I manage the tension on the fish with some coordination between the line hand and the rod hand.
There’s always a weak link. Sometimes, it’s the operator at fault as I am well aware of for myself. Trout exacerbate the issue with their weak mouth membranes. Redfish catch fishermen off guard with powerful surges and runs testing weakened leaders, suspect knots or marginal hooks.
Is nylon the way to go on leaders? Some say so. It’s cheaper. I handles near break strength stress better. But, I got this idea a long time ago that I caught more fish on fluorocarbon material than I did using nylon leaders. I believed that my observations regarding fluorocarbon leaders leading to more fish were sound. That idea is now hard wired into my brain. I’m stuck with it. I just try to manage the material for what it is and what it isn’t.
Seaguar is good for sure. I’ve got the red, blue, gold and the old Grand Max out in the garage. I’ve got Yozuri and Vanish fluorocarbon. Vanish fluorocarbon leader to me seems a little out of round or lumpy in a way. I use it for leader butts, but not typically for mid sections and especially not for tippet.
I used to often run with 25 or 30 pound leader on the baitcasting rig fishing around all the reef I was fishing, but kind of tend to go 15 or 20 pound material for the braid to terminal tackle/lure connection leaders these days on the baitcasting rig and 15 pound on fly leader tippets.
I just sort of said the heck with it. 15# fluorocarbon leader seems nice enough to work with on tying knots, making decent presentations and I ought to be able to land about anything out there where I fish on 15 pound material without issues. I don’t break off too many fish and when I do, it’s been operator error. Some of these more dainty fly hooks can bend or snap open before the leader will snap.
Getting the drag how you want it is something I suppose. Trout are such a pain with their delicate mouth membranes. I can’t say I’ve completely mastered the drag on baitcasting rigs fighting better trout. I tend to have a fairly tight drag for the hook set, but then back well off the tight setting for the fight.
I was out on the bay last Monday for a little afternoon session with the fish. At the time I was tossing a paddle tail out away from a reef a bit in 24-30” of water on a 1/16 jig head and hooked and almost immediately lost a good trout. Made another cast, hooked another trout. This fish tail walked and thrashed, gills flaired like it was on meth or something, for as long as I can every remember a trout acting like that, totally freak out fish. I’m trying to back off on the drag and maintain some pressure and I did get that 19” fish in the net, but then lost 3 or 4 after that. Had to be operator error. Pissed me off. Trout have sort of gotten in my head with baitcasting rigs. I do much better getting them to hand, like way, way better, with fly tackle. Most of the time, I don’t even put trout, even better trout, on the reel with fly gear. I manage the tension on the fish with some coordination between the line hand and the rod hand.
There’s always a weak link. Sometimes, it’s the operator at fault as I am well aware of for myself. Trout exacerbate the issue with their weak mouth membranes. Redfish catch fishermen off guard with powerful surges and runs testing weakened leaders, suspect knots or marginal hooks.
Is nylon the way to go on leaders? Some say so. It’s cheaper. I handles near break strength stress better. But, I got this idea a long time ago that I caught more fish on fluorocarbon material than I did using nylon leaders. I believed that my observations regarding fluorocarbon leaders leading to more fish were sound. That idea is now hard wired into my brain. I’m stuck with it. I just try to manage the material for what it is and what it isn’t.
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spiny norman
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Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
I think Karstopo may be onto it. A bad batch or out of date spool. IMO Fluorocarbon ages worse than Mono.
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Ron Mc
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Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Actually, Michael is the only one who can be onto this.
He needs to look at this problem as a system, not the leaves or branches - step back and see the forest.
He needs to look at this problem as a system, not the leaves or branches - step back and see the forest.
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
I know it wasn’t the knots because I actually saw the broken leader with a Vudu shad sticking out of a 19” trout’s mouth flopping around in the well of my yak. The leader came off of a fresh spool as well. All I can think is that it structurally broke down after the big red and then nearly every decent fish after broke off a little more leader. It’s just something that has not happened to me before but it makes sense. And for those curious, it was the 20 lb Yo-zuri pink disappearing fluorocarbon.
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Ron Mc
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Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Trout canines can certainly cut straight through fluorocarbon.
If you're pushing fluorocarbon to incipient breakage, then you're not correctly using reel drag to protect it.
There's definitely nothing wrong with YoZuri HD leader, and I did a search on BR, where they complain about everything - nobody complained about YoZuri HD
If you're pushing fluorocarbon to incipient breakage, then you're not correctly using reel drag to protect it.
There's definitely nothing wrong with YoZuri HD leader, and I did a search on BR, where they complain about everything - nobody complained about YoZuri HD
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Star drags on most baitcasting reels are good and strong, stronger than typical leader material. Getting the drag just right may be harder than it might seem. It is for me. I don’t like the drag to be the same for trout and redfish. Redfish, I’m dialing it down. I often fish shell for redfish. Redfish WILL go over and into shell reef and that can mean lost fish. A heavy drag can turn the fish. Plus, redfish have rubber lips so you ain’t going to tear out the hooks. Redfish, even well under the rated weight test of the leader, can make sudden surges and strain a leader to near breaking strength and beyond.
Lost fish are part of fishing. I know people that totally have major melt downs after losing good fish. I’m pretty relaxed about losing fish. I do my best and hope for more opportunities. I’ve lost good fish and caught good fish. I stay in the fight and try to make improvements.
Lost fish are part of fishing. I know people that totally have major melt downs after losing good fish. I’m pretty relaxed about losing fish. I do my best and hope for more opportunities. I’ve lost good fish and caught good fish. I stay in the fight and try to make improvements.
Re: Weakened fluorocarbon after a big fish
Yeah, I didn’t really mind about losing these fish because there were sooooo many to be caught and Inwas releasing a bunch as it was. I have caught hundreds of trout of all sizes using Yo-zuri fluoro without issue before. It just seemed strange to me that this all happened right after the big red so I figured something must have happened to the leader (other than abrasion which I am familiar with and I was in fairly oyster free water).
I think karstopo found the answer as I am familiar with and checked the other variables (knots, abrasion) and actually saw physically broken leader. All I know is there is a decent-sized trout with a white Vudu shad in its lip swimming around Sea Isle along with a couple of others that I didn’t see. And another with a tandem.
I think karstopo found the answer as I am familiar with and checked the other variables (knots, abrasion) and actually saw physically broken leader. All I know is there is a decent-sized trout with a white Vudu shad in its lip swimming around Sea Isle along with a couple of others that I didn’t see. And another with a tandem.