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By texnomad
#2279387
An observation on braid fishing line. Both lines are big name 20#/6 braid lines in yellow. Brand 1 is 4 ply braid and Brand 2 is 8 ply braid. I used the brand 1 for about four years. Brand 2 has been in use about two years. Here is something I have noticed. Brand 2 is is less stiff and needs more care to get a knot to “settle in” accurately. Brand 1 tied about like 10 pound Stren. Neither are really any trouble for knotting but the difference was noticed.

Now the slightly troublesome part. I use a snap at the end of the main line to clip on my lures. The 4 ply line could handle dozens of all sorts of fish before it started to frazzle a noticeable amount. The 8 ply line makes it through 4 to 6 trout and the frazzle is noticeable. A cut off and retie is done and we go merrily along catching fish.

My guess is that the depth of the abrasion is the same on both lines. The 4 ply line strands are thicker than the 8 ply strands. So my guess is the thinner strands are getting a bigger percent of cut through than the 4 ply line for identical abrasion. I have not noticed either line wearing through sooner than the other so I do not know what difference it makes for real situations. But I have a habit of noticing things like this and wanted to report it. The frazzle area is the first 4 inches up from the snap. My guess is that the fish are rubbing it with their bodies as the fight goes forward.
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By kickingback
#2279395
Take a line that has 4 strands and pull it apart. You have 4 thick strands that can and will fray. Same for the 8 strand except the strands are smaller than the 4 strands therefore the smaller lines will fray as well but since they are smaller then 2 or more of the strands will be frayed.
If one strand from the 4 ply is frayed then 2 strands of the 8 ply will be frayed as they will be the same area to get frayed. With more strands frayed it will look like more fray than the 4 strand. Still the same strength as 4 and 8 with 1 or 2 strands frayed.
You are correct, it's the number of frays strands that will make the line fail easier.
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By Ron Mc
#2279401
I was pricing braid recently, though just to use 15-lb as backing below 12-lb Abrazix fluoro, to give a small spool more capacity. Also admit to being a total Seaguar junkie, but bought Yo-Zuri for this task - what I needed only cost $13.
In context for this thread, I noticed Yo-Zuri doesn't have the hair-like diameters for similar test, but they also state they have an extra coating on this line, probably just for frazzle.
What floored me the most was the cost on Seaguar's 8-strand braid, Smackdown - $50 for a reel charge,
They also offer a 16-strand braid in offshore tests, Threadlock, which is $100 for a reel charge.
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By karstopo
#2279409
I remember the frazzle. I don’t think I ever changed line on a reel because of frazzle or lost a fish because of it. I would cut off the worst of the frazzle on leader changes. I’m not sure what causes it besides fish teeth. With the leaders I used, the teeth weren’t getting to the braid. Grit on the rod guides and in the kayak, contact with shell, maybe UV light in sunlight causes frazzle. Eventually, I’d change the line due to loss on leader changes or something else like a tangle.

These freaking braided line made now are super strong. I use all my left over spools as fly line backing.
By texnomad
#2279411
I do use a mono leader when around rocks, shell or whatever that could cause abrasion trouble. Most of my fishing here in Rockport is in water deep enough I do not contact rocks etc very often. That is what makes me guess it is fish gill plates or ???? causing the frazzle. It has not caused me enough trouble to worry about it but it is noticeable.
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By Cuervo Jones
#2279412
I just always fish mono. I use Fluoro leaders in the salt though. Never got into braid. It seems like a hassle.


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By imaoldmanyoungsalt
#2279415
I'm still trying to get use to using braid. I have it on a few reels. Some days I like it some days I don't. I would like it a lot more if tying mono or flouro leaders to it wasn't such a hassle. I hate tying those knots!
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By Ron Mc
#2279443
Of course I'm a fly fisherman and a sailor, used to tying a gazillion knots, but with braid to mono, loop-to-loop works great - max area contact and no small sharp braid to cut through the mono.
Use a tiny surgeon's loop on the mono, easy to tie (or better, perfection loop for smooth sliding through the guides when needed), and a big enough surgeon's loop on the braid to fit over the reel. Take the big loop through the small loop then wrap it over the reel, and gently pull them straight.
The loop in the braid wets together and acts like a single fine strand.
Even easier if you're using a short leader - both loops can be small - slide line loop through the leader loop, and pull the tip of the leader through the line loop.
Otherwise, Allbright knot or double uni knot are best for attaching mono to braid, but agree neither are easy knots to tie with lines this small.

If you've ever fished spec rigs, even tying mono to the spec rig with a single uni knot or a clinch knot will cut through the thicker loop on the end of the spec rig with enough big fish.
If you loop your mono and drop the spec rig through the loop to make a loop-to-loop connection, it will fish forever, because the contact between the two line sizes isn't a single sharp point.

And of course the topic of this thread is braid - and frazzle.
Even the original fluorocarbons would frazzle and eventually break at the frazzle. Back to yo-zuri's coating, they developed the first copolymer lines, so their coating on braid is probably pretty tough.
The good thing about mono for salt fly leaders is mono floats, keeping it out of the grass - tie on fluoro tippet to drop your fly. Fluoro is neutral density and slowly sinks. Salt-specific fluoro can be really dense and very fine diameter for its test.

As I described in my other post. here's 100 yds 15-lb braid for backing - I should be able to get 80-100 yds 12-lb Abrazix over this. I know Tobin has said you need braid to set the hook fishing TSL, but I've never had a stretch problem with Seaguar Red or Abrazix fluoro.
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By TroutSupport.com
#2279469
there is certainly a place for both mono and braid.

I agree with karstopo, line fuzziness is just some external fray and some lines are different than others. You still have 100's of fibers in a braided line. Now a knick from an oyster is different, cut through a 1/3 of that braid and it's going to break.
By imaoldmanyoungsalt
#2279473
Ron Mc wrote:Of course I'm a fly fisherman and a sailor, used to tying a gazillion knots, but with braid to mono, loop-to-loop works great - max area contact and no small sharp braid to cut through the mono.
Use a tiny surgeon's loop on the mono, easy to tie (or better, perfection loop for smooth sliding through the guides when needed), and a big enough surgeon's loop on the braid to fit over the reel. Take the big loop through the small loop then wrap it over the reel, and gently pull them straight.
The loop in the braid wets together and acts like a single fine strand.
Even easier if you're using a short leader - both loops can be small - slide line loop through the leader loop, and pull the tip of the leader through the line loop.
Otherwise, Allbright knot or double uni knot are best for attaching mono to braid, but agree neither are easy knots to tie with lines this small.

If you've ever fished spec rigs, even tying mono to the spec rig with a single uni knot or a clinch knot will cut through the thicker loop on the end of the spec rig with enough big fish.
If you loop your mono and drop the spec rig through the loop to make a loop-to-loop connection, it will fish forever, because the contact between the two line sizes isn't a single sharp point.

And of course the topic of this thread is braid - and frazzle.
Even the original fluorocarbons would frazzle and eventually break at the frazzle. Back to yo-zuri's coating, they developed the first copolymer lines, so their coating on braid is probably pretty tough.
The good thing about mono for salt fly leaders is mono floats, keeping it out of the grass - tie on fluoro tippet to drop your fly. Fluoro is neutral density and slowly sinks. Salt-specific fluoro can be really dense and very fine diameter for its test.

As I described in my other post. here's 100 yds 15-lb braid for backing - I should be able to get 80-100 yds 12-lb Abrazix over this. I know Tobin has said you need braid to set the hook fishing TSL, but I've never had a stretch problem with Seaguar Red or Abrazix fluoro.
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Many thanks Ron, I'll have to try the loop knots
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By Ron Mc
#2279491
imaoldmanyoungsalt wrote:Many thanks Ron, I'll have to try the loop knots

you're welcome.
More show and tell.
Here made a couple of quick knots, and took some macros.
Small-ish surgeon's loop in 15-lb braid (0.008"), and smaller perfection loop in 12-lb Red (0.011")
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looped together loosely
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pulled tight - the braid won't cut the fluoro, you can't pull this apart, will glide through your guides if necessary, and is smaller than just about any other knot.
On top is the double uni-knot, with the loop-to-loop on bottom. The loop knots are at least one-third smaller diameter than the double uni-knot, and slide much better.
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Two ways to take this apart to replace leader - you can slide the loop apart, or simply clip the loop in the leader, and the cut end slides right out. Loop an end on a new leader and slide it back together.
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By Chubs
#2279606
Thanks Ron, looks like a good thing to try.

As for spooling up line, I try a mono backer and about 60 yards of floro. Much cheaper and your mono backer hardly ever sees the sunlight... Unless you birdnest and have to cut the line :(
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By Ron Mc
#2279610
I've landed kings and big jacks on inshore tackle, also on a 7-wt flyrod. I've also been spooled by a few bull reds. I just like having enough line capacity on my reels to have a chance to bring them in. The capacity of that reel is listed as 120 yds, and I was able to stretch it to 200 yds this way.
I also buy my fluoro on bulk spools, so this backing will last me a long time and filling the reel the rest of the way with fluoro won't eat into my bulk spool too quickly.
(Finished out a bulk spool on the last trip, charging my dad's reel.)
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By Ron Mc
#2279677
btw, they conservatively under-estimated the capacity of the Lew's Inshore.
After 100 yds 15-lb braid (0.008"), I was able to add 145 yds 12-lb Seaguar fluoro (0.011").
After a little back-acre casting, it's also the smoothest distance-casting reel I've ever chunked. 150' casts with 1/4-oz were slow lobs (admitted with an 8-1/2' med-light rod). I don't think backlash will ever be an issue unless I get carried away.
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By Ron Mc
#2299133
Searched up this old thread where I remembered showing these knots and loop-to-loop photos.

Was tinkering around with the camera and had some more useful knot photos to show.
And praise of loops - they have so many great uses, and where you can use them, are twice as strong as any other joint, especially a knot in mono/fluoro.
Have a new salty UL with 6-lb braid, and began with a working 10-inch, 10-lb copolymer shock tippet.

Here's the Improved allbright knot connecting 6-lb braid to 10-lb copolymer. It's also been sealed with a crop of CA.
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Always amazed how ratty your good clean knots look at this camera level.
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I put a 1-1/2"-long surgeon's loop at the business end of this shock tippet, long enough to give me a couple of specific uses.
Here's the Surgeon's loop knot in 10-lb copolymer. While this knot is larger than a perfection loop, it's reported to be stronger, and easier to tie reliably.
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On another reel, this is the smaller Perfection loop in 15-lb fluoro tippet, 1/2"-long loop.
This loop is large enough to loop on a metal-wire bite trace or lure paper clip for quick lure swapping.
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The one maybe not so obvious thing you can use loop-to-loop for is looping on a smaller piece of tippet to tie your lures directly. This lets you fish several lures and easily replace the "disposable" tippet.

The larger surgeon's loop I tied has one great use with pre-made spec rigs, or if you tie your own tandems. The store-bought ones are tied on 30-lb mono leader and delivered with their own surgeon's loop. If you tie your own, you typically use 20-lb mono/fluoro or larger.
If you tie a uni-knot directly to the surgeon's loop on the tandem rig, after a few fish, the smaller mono tears through the larger mono.
So instead, begin with a 1-1/2" to 2" surgeon's loop in your own line. Slide your line and loop through the tandem rig loop, open your loop and drop both lures through. This gives you a loop-to-loop connection that's twice as strong as any knot.

Here's the other thing I did it for, my surgeon's loop is large enough for looping on a 3" cigar cork by dropping it through the loop.
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here's the 1-1/2" surgeon's loop looped to one of those microscopic titanium bite traces from Russia
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